[MB4DI]

Originally Posted by ringoism

So I've looked at two of these CRDe engines in Scorpios now, and it looks like the basic block is same as the DI's. If that's the case and if the bellhousing mounting pattern is also same, then why couldn't I put a 5-speed from a Thar CRDe or 4x4 Scorp / Getaway (CRDe) in the Marshal?

Marshal has the old Armada Borg-Warner transfer case and the Thar/Scorps use BW's too, so it's not unlikely the splines / mounting are same.

Anyone out there who can confirm whether a CRDe 5-speed (NGT520/530 I guess) can be mated to an old N/A DI on the front end and an older BW TC on the rear?

Was told in Mayapuri earlier that a custom bellhousing was required, and I didn't at all like the quality of the one they showed me there.

Just wanting to cruise better on the highway, and figure a 5-speed gives me a better spread of ratios and also a full-syncronized 1st, rather than just changing my diff gears to 3.73's.


Thanks,
-Eric

Hey Eric,

I guess, your best bet would be to plonk a NGT520 with T-18 TC from 4WD Bolero pickup/Camper. These are available in abundance and are cheap to procure.

I am afraid that the bell housing for mating a DI engine with BA-10/NGT530 is very difficult to get. I haven't seen this combo officially in any Mahindra vehicle yet.

regards,
MB4DI

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Anyone out there who can confirm whether a CRDe 5-speed (NGT520/530 I guess) can be mated to an old N/A DI on the front end and an older BW TC on the rear?

I remember somewhere in the archives BD Sir mentioning something in the lines that CRDe will make a small meal out of the old axles.

Find an old Scorpio 4X4 and since you have experience in mechanically restoring a vehicle, it should serve you very well. Only thing you need to learn is how to drive it in the hills, takes a while but you`ll learn.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by MB4DI

Hey Eric,

I guess, your best bet would be to plonk a NGT520 with T-18 TC from 4WD Bolero pickup/Camper. These are available in abundance and are cheap to procure.

I am afraid that the bell housing for mating a DI engine with BA-10/NGT530 is very difficult to get.

I'm not a big fan of the T-18 due to the NVH, weight, wear, and (theoretically) lower FE on account of the indirect drive. Rugged for sure, but unless someone's doing extreme heavy-duty stuff, I think the B-W is the better box. M&M apparently came to believe that, too.

Right that the NGT's were never mated to DI's - question was whether the basic DI and CRDe architecture and mounting pattern might be same, as the latter did use these 5-speed GB's. Seems odd that M&M would have changed it.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

I remember somewhere in the archives BD Sir mentioning something in the lines that CRDe will make a small meal out of the old axles.

Find an old Scorpio 4X4 and since you have experience in mechanically restoring a vehicle, it should serve you very well. Only thing you need to learn is how to drive it in the hills, takes a while but you`ll learn.

Not sure what BD had in mind, Dana 44's with FFA's should be absolutely plenty strong for the CRDe's rather measly power output - but anyway I am not suggesting putting a CRDe engine in the Marshal, was asking whether a CRDe's 5-speed gearbox would mate to its DI, as the engine blocks looked very similar and I suspected the CRDe might be just a common-rail version of the DI.

Btw have driven Scorpios both 2wd and 4wd plenty in these hills, they drive well and naturally with no real learning curve IMO, and if I came across a good one at reasonable price with 4x4 all working, I'd be mighty tempted. Even here in the snow-belt, they are quite rare, however.

-Eric

[MB4DI]

Originally Posted by ringoism

I'm not a big fan of the T-18 due to the NVH, weight, wear, and (theoretically) lower FE on account of the indirect drive. Rugged for sure, but unless someone's doing extreme heavy-duty stuff, I think the B-W is the better box. M&M apparently came to believe that, too.

Right that the NGT's were never mated to DI's - question was whether the basic DI and CRDe architecture and mounting pattern might be same, as the latter did use these 5-speed GB's. Seems odd that M&M would have changed it.

I suspected the CRDe might be just a common-rail version of the DI.

-Eric

Bell housing for NEF2.49[Thar CRDE engine] and NEF2.6[Scorpio SZ2600 engine] is same and uses NGT530 gearbox [BA-10 as well]. Whereas, the Bellhousing for DI is altogether different and uses NGT520. I guess there is no adapter plate available from M&M also, for mating a NGT520 to BW-TC. I have seen that, the both bell housings have different bolt patterns. Hence, it means that the engine blocks are not same.

Secondly, the DI block is actually similar to Imperio/Genio mDi CRDE engine which again uses NGT520 gearbox with similar bell housing.

You need to pick your poison, I guess.

regards,
MB4DI

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Just wanting to cruise better on the highway, and figure a 5-speed gives me a better spread of ratios and also a full-syncronized 1st, rather than just changing my diff gears to 3.73's.

Hi Eric,

I assume you already have the Di engine in your Jeep, if so, go ahead and get the NGT520 + T18 combo, which came in the Major and Thar Di, with the Di Turbo engines.

It will give you great cruising speed, and highway ability. As for mods, you will have to change the GB cross member and prop shaft lengths. Also, possibly the Gearbox cover in the body.

These are available in plenty in Scrap yards. Get a 4.27:1 final drive ratio and you are good to go.

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by MB4DI

Bell housing for NEF2.49[Thar CRDE engine] and NEF2.6[Scorpio SZ2600 engine] is same and uses NGT530 gearbox [BA-10 as well]. Whereas, the Bellhousing for DI is altogether different and uses NGT520. I guess there is no adapter plate available from M&M also, for mating a NGT520 to BW-TC. I have seen that, the both bell housings have different bolt patterns. Hence, it means that the engine blocks are not same.

Secondly, the DI block is actually similar to Imperio/Genio mDi CRDE engine which again uses NGT520 gearbox with similar bell housing.

You need to pick your poison, I guess.

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Hi Eric,

I assume you already have the Di engine in your Jeep, if so, go ahead and get the NGT520 + T18 combo, which came in the Major and Thar Di, with the Di Turbo engines.

Thanks guys.

I guess that combo is what they put in the newer (2015-up) Bolero LX and Campers, too, so should be relatively plentiful up here in scrap yards. Already do have the 4.27:1's. But as noted I really do prefer the BW TC due to superior NVH... Actually scrapped my T18 (it needed a few gears and the intermediate shaft replaced) when I lost my workshop; It's sounding like I may end up regretting that .

Anyway, if it's the NGT530 that mates to the BW cases, then I guess I need a custom bellhousing or an adapter plate if I want to use that with my DI - so if anyone knows a source for *good-quality* unit of either, please let me know. I'd suppose that if the GB itself is going to run me Rs30k and the bellhousing / adapter plate maybe 5+k, and then there'll be the crossmember / shaft mods (but I have such a nice self-made crossmember, and already adjusted the shaft-lengths once!), etc... phew...

Trying not to go to too much trouble / expense here, so if this ends up seeming like too much pain, will just drop in the 3.73's with appropriate carriers. For that matter if anyone out there wants to swap their factory 3.73's from Bolero / Thar DI 4x4 for my 4.27's, can consider that option too. I rarely have needed a 1st gear quite as low as what I've got, and if this would gain me something in highway comfort, that may be my easiest / cheapest way out.

Thanks,

-Eric

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Thanks guys.

Trying not to go to too much trouble / expense here, so if this ends up seeming like too much pain, will just drop in the 3.73's with appropriate carriers.

Eric, you won't like 3:73s on the big hills...you won't like 3.73s AT ALL. You won't be able to climb worth diddly-squat and I am talking from experience here.

[MB4DI]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

Eric, you won't like 3:73s on the big hills...you won't like 3.73s AT ALL. You won't be able to climb worth diddly-squat and I am talking from experience here.

Absolutely, even the new Bolero B6 [BS6] which has 1500cc 3-pot engine, now comes with 4.3 differential ratio as standard.

I had upgraded mine from 3.73 to 4.3 along with 31” tyres.

Regards,
MB4DI

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

Eric, you won't like 3:73s on the big hills...you won't like 3.73s AT ALL. You won't be able to climb worth diddly-squat and I am talking from experience here.

Yeah, Ken, that's what I've been afraid of, and why I've not done it before now - the 4.27s seem perfect for our local driving here, only feel the lack of overdrive. That said, if I finally went ahead and hung the turbo on the old DI as I've been long thinking to do, I'd have a lot more pull in the midrange than I do now, which could make higher gearing more workable. As of now I feel the 1st gear is lower than it really needs to be in almost all situations, was only concerned about the rpm drop between gears, since without a turbo I have a lot less torque around 1500-2000rpms I'd normally be at when changing up.

Originally Posted by MB4DI

Absolutely, even the new Bolero B6 [BS6] which has 1500cc 3-pot engine, now comes with 4.3 differential ratio as standard.

I had upgraded mine from 3.73 to 4.3 along with 31” tyres.

I'm quite sure the 3-pot revs more freely, and with the overdrive there would be no downsides. It may also have a little less grunt, and definitely no low-range TC to get you out of the sticky situations, so the lower final drive makes sense in that case

Would be helpful if we had a standardized way (as with bicycles) to compared EFFECTIVE gear ratios, taking into account tyre sizes etc.

Just drove Bhpian Vikrant's mighty "militarized" Marshal. He's got 33" tall tyres (yep, 9.50-16 cannon tyres!) and the 4.27s with an MDI3200TC, and it didn't seem to struggle climbing on our normal inclines around here - and that' represents almost exactly the same gearing than our car with 3.73s and 29" tall tyres would be. He's in Ladakh now (not the first time), heavily laden with passengers and lots of accessory equipment - will hear his impressions when he returns. But he drove up from MH on the highways and says he finds it pretty comfortable cruising at 90-95kmph. Which is about as fast as we probably ought to be going in old Marshals anyway.

Thanks guys,
Eric

[dhanushs]

Eric, you will also have to change the offset of the rear axle when converting into a BW output, since the output shaft is not offset. Also, Bell housing with an adapter plate isnt really a reliable option.

Also, the whine is not only from T18, but from KMT90 as well, so when you go for the NGT520, one part will be solved. Newer Thar Di's are pretty smooth and the Di Clatter silences whatever the hum the T18 has.

And also, like DD mentioned, you can retain 4.27:1

[RJKottayam]

I searched on this forum a lot. Still not sure, whether anyone has successfully mated a BA10 2WD gearbox with a XDP4.9 engine

[nbk.0707]

Greetings my fellow T-BHP members,

I have a technical query concerning the Front Axle of MM Thar CRDe, in June 2022, I made an impromptu decision to buy a 2013 Thar CRDE, which was available in my native city so I asked my father to perform a check and if it is acceptable, take the delivery, during the check my father raised a concern with the seller that both the front axles were removed. The seller told him that as he uses his vehicle for long-distance runs and does not use the 4X4 (this vehicle has fixed flanges, not auto-locking hubs), he got them removed as he wanted to have better fuel efficiency, this practice is very usual so we let any kind of apprehensions go. The seller also showed him the axles and the propeller shaft. The Car runs like a charm so there were no concerns on that part, the payment was made and the transfer process started.

Moving forward to August 2022, I was back in the country and wanted to get the Front axle working, so I went to an FNG and asked them to get the Axles serviced for the joints and do a normal routine check and assemble the Front axle to have the 4WD working.

It was only upon opening the cover of the differential housing we found that the crown-pinion assembly was covered in mud and the whole tube and the differential and its housing were rusted. I chose not to cry over spilled milk and started arranging the required spares, which included all the bearings and seals.

I was able to source most of the items through Boodmo but again my time to leave the country came so I left the car in 4X2 mode so that it could be used if required. Again I was traveling back to India in August 2023, this time all charged up so that I would be able to get the 4WD working, this time with all the spares and everything, the front axle was assembled and the trial was done but there were some clearance issues which were taken care of assembled again.

My biggest problem which is coming up now is that the tube is leaking oil from the left side,
Image credits to respective owners




These images are from the Boodmo OEM catalog and All the bearings and oil seals marked in the images above have been changed to OEM parts. In the second image, there is a Bearing in the left-hand corner [number 62], This bearing stabilizes the Axle shaft from the Differential to the Left side Axle, the oil seal which is leaking is from the same side.

I was checking on the quantities of the bear [number 62], which is written as 2 but there is no provision for this bearing to be put on both sides, my biggest query is on this point,
- Is it possible that this particular bearing would be installed in tandem?
- Is it possible that someone can help me to refer to the Maintenance/ Repair Manual for the same?
- Can someone please point out if there are any missing parts on the above two images especially related to bearings and oil seals?

Please note that the Front IFS Axle assembly costs around 75k so changing the assembly is not an option.

Thanks!

[TorqueMonster]

Hi guys. I had a slight doubt regarding the gear ratio to be followed for my soon to be acquired MM540. It has the Bolero DI diesel Engine present in it, with the 4 Speed GB. My use case is cruising around at 70 in the highway, and to tackle bad roads. I would not require lots of torque as there is not much off - roading I will undertake. It is 4x4 and has been fitted with bigger tyres, Continental Cross Contacts. I will update the size of the tyre when I get a chance to observe it.

What is the best gear ratio I could put on this vehicle, allowing me to cruise on the highways around 70 - 75, without putting myself in danger considering that the vehicle is not built for long highway rides.

If the gear ratios are not adequate, what Engine is best to swap into my MM540. It would also be appreciated if there is anything else I should keep in mind regarding this vehicle and its performance

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by TorqueMonster

It has the Bolero DI diesel Engine present in it, with the 4 Speed GB. My use case is cruising around at 70 in the highway, and to tackle bad roads.

I would suggest to change to 4.27 (47/11) ratio. This will be perfect for you, even if you up-size the tires. besides you can use your original diff carrier and change only the crown/pinion gears.

If you were not planning to upsize your tires, I would have suggested the 3.73 ration, but that will require you to change your diff carrier also.

[TorqueMonster]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

I would suggest to change to 4.27 (47/11) ratio. This will be perfect for you, even if you up-size the tires. besides you can use your original diff carrier and change only the crown/pinion gears.

If you were not planning to upsize your tires, I would have suggested the 3.73 ration, but that will require you to change your diff carrier also.

The tyres are already upsized on the vehicle which I am buying. I am not engine swapping the vehicle as the DI engine which was put in the jeep is a mint 50k run engine only, so ideally would like to keep it.

As you have instructed, I will change the gear ratio to 4.27. Thanks for clarifying my doubt