[Harbir]

huh?

I was pointing out that in 2022 both vehicles will be nearly worthless and any difference in resale value then won't make up for the difference in the user experience over 10 years of ownership.

if that wasn't clear, perhaps I should have just said it instead of invited you to speculate on it.

[jyobeb]

Originally Posted by Harbir

Thanks for all the comments. When did the montero get the facelift? Prior to the one that just happened, that is.

July 2007. Mine is a June 2007 model and I choose it because it had less electronics, is quicker and handles better!

[zipperone]

The fortuner will surely have a better residual value by 2022. Pajero is an outdated design that will be way out dated in 2022. The demand for the fortuner speaks volumes. What is waitlisted today for months on end is likely to have a good second hand market. They are selling more fortuners in a month than all the other SUVS put together and still cannot keep up with demand. The high numbers of vehicles on the road with ensure that spares are plenty and cheap and with lots of after market options as well. Then of course there is the legendary toyota build quality. Have you seen the videos of destruction of hilux and trips to the poles? Why is no body making these trips in a Mitsubishi?

[zipperone]

Originally Posted by Harbir

huh?

I was pointing out that in 2022 both vehicles will be nearly worthless and any difference in resale value then won't make up for the difference in the user experience over 10 years of ownership.

if that wasn't clear, perhaps I should have just said it instead of invited you to speculate on it.

I would not say so. I drove a fortuner with 1.5 lakh KM on it and it felt like a new one even after that much abuse.

[Parm]

me and my friend took out our vehicles (Hilux and Pajero/Montero) for recce for OTR on desert and wadis....

Hilux is 2.7 Ltr 157 Bhp, AT, 4WD and Pajero/Montero is 3.8 Ltr AT 4WD with Rear Diff locks. both are petrol engines....

my Hilux performed better than the Pajero/Montero. he was not able to clear some rocks or stones, got stuck in sand...etc etc.

Hilux with front IFS and read rigid axle, and Pajero/Montero with IFS in front and rear.

May be the Man behind the wheel mattered!

i would choose a Hilux/Fortuner over Pajero/Montero...anyday.

[Harbir]

I have cut short my trip to J&K. The 4x4 I have borrowed has sapped my confidence about its reliability and I will not be taking it to ladakh. I went out of kashmir via the mughal route, then back in via symthan top from kishtwar, but have called an end to the trip for now. the mughal road had deteriorated to the point that a day after I went over it, it was closed to traffic due to hazardous conditions. At places, the road track had completely slid down the mountain side and we were driving on temporary material torn from the mountainside to fill the holes. All very unstable. Anyway, the vehicle I have (not saying which) performed poorly and thats the end of my trip for now. If we get a 4x4 found and purchased within the next 6 weeks, I will be back to complete this aborted tour.

I am now heading back to the plains (tomorrow to amritsar, thence to chandigarh). A chap my father had talked to has located a fortuner and a Montero both of which I will test drive in the next few days after which one will drop out of the contention and a search will begin to find the best example of the other one (unless both drop out of contention for any reason)

lets see how this pans out.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by Harbir

..the mughal road had deteriorated to the point that a day after I went over it, it was closed to traffic due to hazardous conditions. At places, the road track had completely slid down the mountain side and we were driving on temporary material torn from the mountainside to fill the holes. All very unstable.

High end SUVs are heavy and lack chassis ground clearance you would like for Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh. Everything is trade off and once again we have the HWY versus Off road, bad road, dilemma here.

I don't pretend to have the answer to this but at the risk of being branded a complete infidel I suggest you consider the lowly Maruti Grand Vitara as well. There is an old thread about skid plates (bottom protection) by Samurai on this site somewhere that you might want to read, both for the G.V. and SUVs in general.

Here's the G.V. site...Welcome to Grand Vitara - Play it your way

[Aroy]

If the terrain you will be traversing is so bad only a Unimog will do!

As there is no jack of all trades in 4x4, a light and narrow vehicle will always fare better over loose surface compared to a powerful but wide and heavy vehicle. That is where the Gypsy scores over others. In some places even the Hummer will stall or be too wide, while the Gypsy will zoom through merrily. Though its ride is harsh, its reliability is phenomenal.

Coming back to the topic. What would ideally suit you is a Landrover Defender. It is tough, narrow (for taking those narrow mountain trails), has an excellent GC, and it will go where even Hummer will not dare. (The Discovery and Range Rovers are much heavier and wider).

[Harbir]

I just test drove a used 2008 montero. instead of writing up a fresh piece, I'll just copy paste the email I sent my dad about it:

I just drove an automatic trans mission montero. things don't look too good. automatics are rarer than hens' teeth.Turned out that the 4 different sales guys I called were all advertising the same unit that I have just driven. Also, the car's price was 47 lacs on the road and the owner is calculating 50% depreciation in 3 years off what he paid and is holding out for 27 lacs. paying that for it is simply out of the question, even if you were willing to increase your expected expenditure. The vehicle has 49,000km and the exterior is fine but the interior shows more wear than your accord does at 10 years and 120,000km. That level of wear on a vehicle costing 20 lacs, never mind 27, is out of the question. The alignment was off and the steering was sticky. If more automatic transmission monteros at a lower price and in better condition cannot be found, this choice is going to be out of the window. The other two vehicles I had found had been sold "long ago"

On the positive side, the montero is an impressive vehicle for the purpose you have in mind. From the driver's seat, you get a very commanding view of the road, as if you are sitting on the second floor. For accurate placement of the vehicle while crawling over broken surfaces, this would be amazing. the front seats are very comfortable and the rear seat is very nice if the front seat is pushed well forward. if the front seats are way back, then the seats don't have enough room under them for shoes of the rear seat occupants, which would be a problem for anybody not miniature sized. To drive, it makes clear that soft roaders are just very tall station wagons. This thing is very wieldy in terms of not feeling much larger to drive around town, but its definitely not going to corner and steer like a car. With practice no doubt it will fly around corners, but its not a car. iIs an off roader, its meant to do that very well and it does not compromise that capability for superior high speed handling.

The engine, very large for a 4 cylinger (3.2litres) shakes when starting up (to be expected), but settles down to a smooth idle once started. The diesel clatter and NVH are noticeable but not problematic. the engine is more than powerful enough to move the Montero smartly and does not have any sluggishness in its feel. It does have a tiptronic mode (opton to smartly shift up and down using a +/- detente in the shifter's travel). It shifts quickly and smoothly upon command. However, I did notice that when I turned off the engine, I felt a soothing removal of fine micro level vibration. that got me slightly worried because you wouldn't feel that in a petrol and it might contribute to fatigue and would be a problem in any large 4 cyl diesel. It makes me wonder if we wouldn't be better of looking for something with a petrol engine (though the fuel bills would kill us). Also, the vibration may be an issue only at idle and not while the vehicle is on the move. It may also have been a problem only for this unit.

Unless we can find a better automatic montero, our choices look limited to manual monteros and fortuners. However, new fortuners have an 8 month wait and there is no news on when the automatic will be out. That just makes some of the manual '08 monteros look like they may be the ticket, if they are in better shape than the automatic unit I just drove. Or maybe the petrol automatic grand vitara though its only a 4 speed. I'll do the research.

[mdsaab]

How about the Ford Endeavour then?
It's Diesel.
Comes in AT.
Is quite tough and you can expect it to handle the tough terrain.
Should be available of the shelf too.

[Harbir]

Overdrive magazine on their fortuner/pajero/endeavour comparison said the endeavour is rubbish off road. I would want to find out for myself rather than take their word on it, but I am not likely to get that opportunity on a test drive.

but I guess I should check it out.

[mdsaab]

Originally Posted by Harbir

Overdrive magazine on their fortuner/pajero/endeavour comparison said the endeavour is rubbish off road. I would want to find out for myself rather than take their word on it, but I am not likely to get that opportunity on a test drive.

but I guess I should check it out.

I went on an Endeavour semi boot camp, it handled pretty well.
and had even read a write up in a magazine once.
it said that it handled rough terrain rather well.
and even had pics to prove it.

[Harbir]

so here is where things stand as far as my choices go:

1. '08 Montero Automatic - nearly impossible to find. the one I found asking price too high for condition and kms done. (27lacs asking for 49,000km, interior well worn, steering is sticky and out of alignment)

2. '08 Montero manual - rare but available, asking prices around 21lacs for 45,000km vehicles, not driven yet so cannot comment on condition of vehicles in this price range.

3. new Fortuner manual trans if I am willing to wait 8 months 20 lacs

4. used Fortuner with manual trans and 15,000km if I don't want to wait, also 20 lacs

5. New Pajero SFX manual 20 lacs

6. used pajero SFX with 30,000km, 15 lacs

7. 2005 Prado automatic with 45,000 km 22 lacs

8. New Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT 20 lacs.

hmmm.

well, I will try to test drive a lot of vehicles today and see what shakes out. Will post follow up comments

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by Harbir

so here is where things stand as far as my choices go:


8. New Endeavour 3.0 4x4 AT 19 lacs.

hmmm.

well, I will try to test drive a lot of vehicles today and see what shakes out. Will post follow up comments

Your TD of Endy should prove instructive as there is a lot of ambiguity about this one in particular. Observers for the most part say the leaf spring suspension makes the ride horrible for most of the occupants i.e. other than the driver and the passenger upfront. Where as a member from Pune and a couple of others claim that a minor tweaking of tyre pressure makes the ride absolutely fine.

When you compare old and new T-Fort the difference of the Road Tax will always be there. Further Toyotas' are being marked down lesser in the pre-used market, whether this is undeserved or deserved is a matter of endless debate .

I do not know how right/wrong I am on this but my take is the used car market marks down each vehicle by approx 15% p.a. of new car price ex-showroom plus road tax for each year of vehicle ownership . If the offers you get are able to come close to this number then you have the basis to evaluate in a realistic manner.

[mdsaab]

Yes that reminds me and takes me back to the Endeavour on tarmac test.
It was horrible, the ride was extremely bouncy throughout. and this was after the semi off road test. Where i was so impressed by the endeavour off road. i was equally un-impressed with it on road.
Also i have heard a lot of people complaining about the rear seat comfort, and how the floor at the back is to high.