is capacitor worth an investement

amit_sound · 5th February 2006, 02:00

Hello,

I wanted to get some knowledge on this "new to me", product in car audio, called the Capacitor. I wanted to ask, that is this worth a investement.
I have Blaupunkt THA480, which is powering my JBL CS1200T bass tube, and rear speakers. fronts are soundstream (not connected to the amp). Pioneer 7750 as HU.

My amp is supplying 240 x 1 RMS to my 125 RMS bass tube and 80 x 2 RMS for the rear speakers. So the question that popped up was that, since i have sufficent power for the bass tube, do i need a capacitor?

If yes, then capacitor of how much power and which brand should i look for?

And lastely, when a capacitor is bought, should it be bought according to the amp or according to the sub? r

for popping up so many questions

viper · 5th February 2006, 09:26

Hi,

A capacitor is definitely a good investment if budget permits. Will help in stabilising power delivery and tighten the bass. For your application a 1/2 farad should suffice. There are plenty of brands in the market ranging from approx 5k to 25 k for the higher spec ones. You have to see what suits your budget. BTW I think you have your amp specs wrong. Pl recheck I think you are confused between the RMS and Max power.

Viper

.anshuman · 5th February 2006, 12:14

capicitor is a good investment and after installing it you will find the bass much more deep and a lot less distortion,but in your kind of setup there is not much need for a capicitor.

general_neo · 5th February 2006, 13:33

Very interesting!!! Capacitors????
I wonder why I neva put this question forward...
Seems like amit's got a powerfull amp to drive 240W RMS thru a single channel. Unless hez got the specs wrong.
Poor Man here got a silly KAC KENWOOD KAC-6401Car Audio Amplifier, 4 Ch, 320W, the same one I was trying to sell...
Decided not to sell and use it in the palio instead.

Can somebody tell me if i need a Capacitor for this one and will it improve anything if i do so.
I am running the Blaupunkt sub and two ovals of this amp.
Awaiting sound gurus and gods to help me.

gunbir · 5th February 2006, 13:48

Amit, good question. For most systems, a cap is not required. You will get better results from spending the same money on better cables. However, if one already has the right cables (reputed brands and right size), for a high-watt system with an upgraded battery, a cap is necessary.

Beware of BOSS'like caps which are over-rated (it may say 1 farad but its only like 0.6 at best). If you open up some of these cheap caps you will find sand filled in them just to make them heavier.

For your kind of system, a cap isnt really required at all. Spend your money on cables and damping.

general_neo · 5th February 2006, 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunbir

Amit, good question. For most systems, a cap is not required. You will get better results from spending the same money on better cables. However, if one already has the right cables (reputed brands and right size), for a high-watt system with an upgraded battery, a cap is necessary.

Beware of BOSS'like caps which are over-rated (it may say 1 farad but its only like 0.6 at best). If you open up some of these cheap caps you will find sand filled in them just to make them heavier.

For your kind of system, a cap isnt really required at all. Spend your money on cables and damping.

Cud have imagined everything else in the world.. except sand.. cud have used lead atleast... wud have looked more professional..
SAND??? Better Dielectric material!!!

Explain Dampning???

Vivekphadnis · 5th February 2006, 23:15

If you want to damp a box, you would try to minimise (ideally kill) reflections. You would only want sound produced by the driver/box system and not reflected sound.

general_neo · 6th February 2006, 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivekphadnis

If you want to damp a box, you would try to minimise (ideally kill) reflections. You would only want sound produced by the driver/box system and not reflected sound.

Grrrrr
Tats too short dude..
Explain!!!
I think i got the whole idea... but i need some corrective actions and recommendations...

amit_sound · 6th February 2006, 02:30

Hi!!! viper and general_neo, the spec for the amp that i mentioned are in RMS and not PMPO. The specs for the amp were very clearly mentioned on the Box.
Check out the link for more details about the specs of Balupunkt THA480.
http://www.blaupunkt.co.in/7607792106_main.asp

Thanks gunbir for your suggestions. Having a budget of 4-5K for the entire wiring, could you suggest some brands.

drpullockaran · 6th February 2006, 07:36

From my rusted knowledge

in audio electronics I think that damping in amps and damping in speaker boxes are totally different concepts as also is damping of the speakers individual drive units(usually the bass driver) with heavy speaker cone material, spiders and diaphragm surrounds. A google search will give you the desired knowledge as my knowledge is pretty rusted in this area. As far as the capacitor is concerned if the lights of the Pioneer unit start to dim when you crank up the volume on bass heavy tracks then you would do well in stabilizing the power suppply by adding the capacitor for the Pioneer unit and if your personnel multimeter connected near the 12 volt supply line of your Blaupunkt shows variation by more than 1 volt when the volume is cranked up you would benefit from the capacitor afer first making sure that all your 12volt supply lines to your amps are thick enough to carry the high ampere requirements. Since you are so keen on high wattage systems I think you should have a listen to some puny but esoteric 8 watt single valve based amplifiers. High watts is not everything. Bye and wear your seatbelts.

Rehaan · 6th February 2006, 09:29

Just wondering,

Is there any major difference between caps used for audio applications and caps used for electronics applications ?

cya
R

navin · 6th February 2006, 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Is there any major difference between caps used for audio applications and caps used for electronics applications ?

Quick Answer:
Stifenning caps are useful if you have over 200W rms /ch in your car AND if you are expereincing problems like loss of control in the bass on peaks. Figure about 0.5F for every 200Wrms of power as a thumbrule. If you got 2 amps (sub and 4 ch.) figure about 1F.

Slow answer:
Q=CV. Q is the energy in joules, C is capacitance in farads, V is voltage in volts. A capacitor will discharage with a time constant inversely related to the resistance across it and it's own capacitance (1/RC).

before I can screamed at for throwing into too much maths....
rule of thumb: a 1F cap will provide about 2 secs of power at about 30W rms at 4 ohms. That means a 1F cap in a car can provide 4 x 8W rms/ch for 2 secs.

That is a lot of power given what stiffening capas are really supposed to do.

Now Rehaan I think you are comparing caps that are part of the power supply and those that are in the signal path. Yes there is a considerable difference in these caps. Electrolytic caps are small and cheap (per farad-volt). However electrolytic caps also create all sorts of harmonics which can detract from the music. The harmonics are present due to the way electrolytic caps work (sharp cut off and hence a square wave which is a function of a fundamental freq and it's harmoncis).

In short when using a capacitor in a signal path we avoid using electrolytic caps or if the (capacitance-volt) values are high then we use ployester or tantalum or polystyrene bypass caps.

Power supply caps (such as stiffening caps) however are usually electrolytic as the values are huge.

navin · 6th February 2006, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by drpullockaran

Since you are so keen on high wattage systems I think you should have a listen to some puny but esoteric 8 watt single valve based amplifiers. High watts is not everything. Bye and wear your seatbelts.

You got a tube SE amp in your car? I Gotta see this. You got a pic?

What OPT do you use?
Is it Triode, U/L or Pentode?
Class A or AB or other?
What valves do you use?

Tube watts are not the same as SS watts so a 8W SE is not puny. Esoteric maybe but not puny.

navin · 6th February 2006, 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by drpullockaran

From my rusted knowledge

in audio electronics I think that damping in amps and damping in speaker boxes are totally different concepts ....

One is electrical and the other mechanical. You cannot not compare the 2 but the maths involved to denote the parameters of both dampings is suprisingly similar.

Thnik: F=MA is very similar to P=VI right?

Sam Kapasi · 6th February 2006, 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Just wondering,

Is there any major difference between caps used for audio applications and caps used for electronics applications ?

cya
R

lol if you are still reeling from Navins answer - here's a simpler one. No.

The one big difference is that even in large power supplies and filter circuits, we use capacitors in Microfarads. The ones we use in cars are in Farad. Which makes it work like a little battery, a quick charge, discharge battery.

5th February 2006, 02:00	#1
amit_sound BHPian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 596 Thanked: 11 Times	is capacitor worth an investement Hello, I wanted to get some knowledge on this "new to me", product in car audio, called the Capacitor. I wanted to ask, that is this worth a investement. I have Blaupunkt THA480, which is powering my JBL CS1200T bass tube, and rear speakers. fronts are soundstream (not connected to the amp). Pioneer 7750 as HU. My amp is supplying 240 x 1 RMS to my 125 RMS bass tube and 80 x 2 RMS for the rear speakers. So the question that popped up was that, since i have sufficent power for the bass tube, do i need a capacitor? If yes, then capacitor of how much power and which brand should i look for? And lastely, when a capacitor is bought, should it be bought according to the amp or according to the sub? r for popping up so many questions
	() Thanks

5th February 2006, 09:26	#2
viper BANNED Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,773 Thanked: 20 Times	Hi, A capacitor is definitely a good investment if budget permits. Will help in stabilising power delivery and tighten the bass. For your application a 1/2 farad should suffice. There are plenty of brands in the market ranging from approx 5k to 25 k for the higher spec ones. You have to see what suits your budget. BTW I think you have your amp specs wrong. Pl recheck I think you are confused between the RMS and Max power. Viper Last edited by viper : 5th February 2006 at 09:30.
	() Thanks

5th February 2006, 12:14	#3
.anshuman Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Good-Gaon Posts: 7,763 Thanked: 11,078 Times View My Garage	capicitor is a good investment and after installing it you will find the bass much more deep and a lot less distortion,but in your kind of setup there is not much need for a capicitor.
	() Thanks

5th February 2006, 13:33	#4
general_neo BHPian Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Abudhabi Posts: 162 Thanked: 27 Times View My Garage	Calling Sound Gods Very interesting!!! Capacitors???? I wonder why I neva put this question forward... Seems like amit's got a powerfull amp to drive 240W RMS thru a single channel. Unless hez got the specs wrong. Poor Man here got a silly KAC KENWOOD KAC-6401Car Audio Amplifier, 4 Ch, 320W, the same one I was trying to sell... Decided not to sell and use it in the palio instead. Can somebody tell me if i need a Capacitor for this one and will it improve anything if i do so. I am running the Blaupunkt sub and two ovals of this amp. Awaiting sound gurus and gods to help me.
	() Thanks

5th February 2006, 13:48	#5
gunbir Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 2,465 Thanked: 33 Times	Depends... Amit, good question. For most systems, a cap is not required. You will get better results from spending the same money on better cables. However, if one already has the right cables (reputed brands and right size), for a high-watt system with an upgraded battery, a cap is necessary. Beware of BOSS'like caps which are over-rated (it may say 1 farad but its only like 0.6 at best). If you open up some of these cheap caps you will find sand filled in them just to make them heavier. For your kind of system, a cap isnt really required at all. Spend your money on cables and damping.
	() Thanks

5th February 2006, 23:15	#7
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	If you want to damp a box, you would try to minimise (ideally kill) reflections. You would only want sound produced by the driver/box system and not reflected sound.
	() Thanks

6th February 2006, 02:30	#9
amit_sound BHPian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 596 Thanked: 11 Times	Hi!!! viper and general_neo, the spec for the amp that i mentioned are in RMS and not PMPO. The specs for the amp were very clearly mentioned on the Box. Check out the link for more details about the specs of Balupunkt THA480. http://www.blaupunkt.co.in/7607792106_main.asp Thanks gunbir for your suggestions. Having a budget of 4-5K for the entire wiring, could you suggest some brands.
	() Thanks

6th February 2006, 07:36	#10
drpullockaran BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: ERNAKULAM Posts: 962 Thanked: 385 Times	Damping in AMPs and Speakers. From my rusted knowledge in audio electronics I think that damping in amps and damping in speaker boxes are totally different concepts as also is damping of the speakers individual drive units(usually the bass driver) with heavy speaker cone material, spiders and diaphragm surrounds. A google search will give you the desired knowledge as my knowledge is pretty rusted in this area. As far as the capacitor is concerned if the lights of the Pioneer unit start to dim when you crank up the volume on bass heavy tracks then you would do well in stabilizing the power suppply by adding the capacitor for the Pioneer unit and if your personnel multimeter connected near the 12 volt supply line of your Blaupunkt shows variation by more than 1 volt when the volume is cranked up you would benefit from the capacitor afer first making sure that all your 12volt supply lines to your amps are thick enough to carry the high ampere requirements. Since you are so keen on high wattage systems I think you should have a listen to some puny but esoteric 8 watt single valve based amplifiers. High watts is not everything. Bye and wear your seatbelts. Last edited by drpullockaran : 6th February 2006 at 07:47.
	() Thanks

6th February 2006, 09:29	#11
Rehaan Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 24,287 Thanked: 35,259 Times	Just wondering, Is there any major difference between caps used for audio applications and caps used for electronics applications ? cya R
	() Thanks