Let's tweak PIONEER Head Units

aseem · 4th September 2005, 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by drpullockaran

Before you plonk your hard earned money have a look into this article on the future of car amplifiers.

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-...ew.html?page=3

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/IS...ew.html?page=4

Bye and wear your seatbelts.

OMG you saved all of us Team BHPians from making a huge investment for an amplifier. Sam I think you will have stiff competition in this forum soon. The article really blew me away, I am sure within next 3-4 years I can get hands on a Class T amplifier for 1 lakh. Meanwhile the 4k I had saved for Sony 504Z can be spent elsewhere. Dr Pullo do you know what stocks we should invest in???

Sam Kapasi · 4th September 2005, 09:27

Dr. Pullockaran, the fun thing about technology is that at no point do we engineers sit back and say "Ah buss, now no more research forever"
There are currently more ways to make a car amplifier than i have fingers and toes. I mean this at absolute basic level.
Class T technology isn't new. YOU said the article is a year old. I really appreciate your intention, but honestly, every decent r&d department has something wild, unaffordable and totally unable to mass produce it.
A simple example is the invention of the Plasma Display Panel at RCA 22 years ago. It honestly has taken PDP technology 22 years to come to the level where the "rich" can buy it! And already it isn't the "best" thing to buy lol.
Maybe you are right. Maybe the day will come when tripath is mass produced and companies like alpine and sony and JBL will be able to sell a class T amp at $200. THAT day it will be the thing to buy. That day is nowhere here yet.
And mass production at normal affordable prices of a product like that....it'll be a long while.
Toh tab tak, where do addicts like aseem, navin, sam, vivek,autopsyche,manticore,mclaren,buffetfan,pingm epal,zzehar,pranil and a 1000 others in this forum (all so, so addicted to good sound in the car), where do we go huh?

Cheers

aseem · 4th September 2005, 10:32

Ok Sam see you in Delhi!

Vivekphadnis · 4th September 2005, 16:09

Aseem, there is no rule that subs need a minimum of 140W RMS.

aseem · 4th September 2005, 19:22

Vivek who said there is a rule that subs need 140 RMS as minimum? I think you have read something out of context and jumped to conclusion. All subwoofers have an RMS rating. The least that I have come across till date is for the JBL 12 " bass tube for 140 RMS. It will run on 60 RMS as well, however this will lead to clipping of an amplifier and would cause thermal damage. So in order to drive the tube you need around 100 watts.
To put it context, I am planning on buying Sony 504Z which has 125 watts bridged RMS. Now I am getting JBL 1000T for 5k and the JBL CS 1200 T for 5k as well. Now any fool will tell you that JBL 1000T is more powerful than JBL tube. However what any fool wont realize is that if I am running a 1000T with an under powered amp, this would lead to clipping, I wont be able to drive the 1000T to its potential. However with the tube, I will be able to drive it to its full potential without worrying about clipping and thermal damage.

drpullockaran · 4th September 2005, 21:50

In one breath Aseem mentioned there would be competition for SAM. I beg to defer on that because I seriously believe half knowldge is dangerous and experimental fun at best. Sam is into audio in a big way(which I gather from his posts) so he can't be touched till someone from IIT with a degree in audio technology comes to this forum. I do teach Orthodontics to Post graduate students for my daily bread and butter and out there I could be prince(My teacher is Emperor) but cannot say the same for my audio or automobile knowledge. Sifting through web pages is just my hobby and take my advice with a pinch of salt as I just might be talking bull **** due to my half baked knowledge in the audio and automobile field. Bye and wear your seatbelts

drpullockaran · 4th September 2005, 22:47

http://cgi.ebay.com/Panasonic-MXE-CQ...QQcmdZViewItem

http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/Panason...-30844419.html

http://www.dealtime.com/xPC-Panasoni...l_CD_Receivers

http://www.caraudiodiscount.com/acat..._radio_cd.html

This item is available for 280-300 dollars so why would you want to pay more for something that should be available for about Rs16000/- in the grey market and probably Rs20000/- in the authorized sales centre. The CQ9701 seems a good bargain though I have not heard the unit and personally I prefer clarity over volume so tube based car audio would serve me better but then again I cannot ever splurge on a valve tube based system. My present system is a puny 22watt*4 Pioner setup which makes good sound at the expense of high Inner ear Cochlear hair destroying volume.

http://umech.mit.edu/hearing/intro/intro.html

Read this article to know how you percieve the sound you are hearing from your high powered units. This article is as simple as it gets I will gladly clarify if I can any doubts you have on this particular article.

Remember these amps mention power in RMS and so should be more than enough for in car entertainment with those wanting 70watts*4 except for those who want 5 channel and more audio. Bye and wear your seatbelts

aseem · 4th September 2005, 23:44

Hi Dr Pollo, thanks for the articles and your interest in this forum. After reading through your posts I am reminded of the mentos and LG dimaag ki batti jalao and innovative ideas ads. A suggestion/idea/mentos funda came to mind reading your posts.... Why dont you make "bye and wear your seatbelts as your signature" rather than typing it again and again

navin · 5th September 2005, 09:33

i would not be worried about Sam guys.

1. D class and T class amps have their failings. beofre i delve into another lecture on electronics let me say that it could be 3-5 years before we see good T class amps readily available and by then JBL or whomever Sam is working for at that time will also be making and selling T/D class amps. example. D class amps were developed 20 years ago and you are only now seeing them that too only where space is a constraint.

2. excellent link on Cochlear Micromechanics dude!

Sam Kapasi · 5th September 2005, 10:07

Dr. Pullockaran,

Thanks for
http://umech.mit.edu/hearing/intro/intro.html

Respect.

Sam

Vivekphadnis · 5th September 2005, 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by aseem

Pranil this is a very very bad idea. Subs require a lot of power to be driven. Most entry level subs require a minimum of 140 Watts RMS in order to be driven. Theoritically you might be able to run your sub with only 40 watts RMS however this will severly damage both the HU and the sub due to clipping. If you run this for extended period of time, you can fry eggs on your HU as the HU will become too HOT.

Go for a decent 2 channel amp. Entry level amps start at 2.5k, Sony 502 Z. Go in for a low powered sub. JBL CS 1200T requires 140 Watts and is the least power hungry sub/tube I know. You can also consider pioneer or sony subs.

This is where you say that entry level subs require a minimum of 140W RMS in order to be driven.
And I have an electronics degree and been in DIY audio for the past eight years to know about clipping and thermal damage. I don't know why all your electronics theories are based on the JBL subs and Sony amps.

navin · 5th September 2005, 11:53

Aseem, I do appreciate your comments. I would suggest you read Vance Dickanson's book on loudspeakers (Vivek can give you the title) as a primer. I admit i have not read it but from what others tell me it will cover a lof of topics that you are not completely informed on and will save you a lot of time googling for.

Vivekphadnis · 5th September 2005, 11:59

Dickason's book is a gem. I have seen it.
By the way navin, there is an interesting discussion going on in diyaudio.com in the Indian equivalents of the following DIY items thread of the loudspeakers section. All about TQWT and stuffing. Check it out.

navin · 5th September 2005, 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivekphadnis

All about TQWT and stuffing. Check it out.

seen it. i often follow a thread for a while. since there is no need for me to interject i stay mum. no need to repeat good stuff. this thread needs more attention.

Also I am still to get my JX92 and 108 sigmas so when i build some real TQWT and ML-TL's I will feel opinionated enough to post.

All my posts are from my personal expereince. I dont feel it is right to trash any component without having heard it or at the minimum it's siblings and feel able to substatiate most of my opinions with data and repeatable double blind tests.

Also this Ipod thing has consumed a lot of time. see PM.

navin · 5th September 2005, 13:24

Dickanson's book is better than Weems I hear. I flipped though both about 10 yers ago at the NYC public Lib but by then it was too late for me.

4th September 2005, 09:27	#32
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,997 Thanked: 2,378 Times View My Garage	Dr. Pullockaran, the fun thing about technology is that at no point do we engineers sit back and say "Ah buss, now no more research forever" There are currently more ways to make a car amplifier than i have fingers and toes. I mean this at absolute basic level. Class T technology isn't new. YOU said the article is a year old. I really appreciate your intention, but honestly, every decent r&d department has something wild, unaffordable and totally unable to mass produce it. A simple example is the invention of the Plasma Display Panel at RCA 22 years ago. It honestly has taken PDP technology 22 years to come to the level where the "rich" can buy it! And already it isn't the "best" thing to buy lol. Maybe you are right. Maybe the day will come when tripath is mass produced and companies like alpine and sony and JBL will be able to sell a class T amp at $200. THAT day it will be the thing to buy. That day is nowhere here yet. And mass production at normal affordable prices of a product like that....it'll be a long while. Toh tab tak, where do addicts like aseem, navin, sam, vivek,autopsyche,manticore,mclaren,buffetfan,pingm epal,zzehar,pranil and a 1000 others in this forum (all so, so addicted to good sound in the car), where do we go huh? Cheers
	() Thanks

4th September 2005, 10:32	#33
aseem Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Delhi Posts: 1,730 Thanked: 441 Times	Ok Sam see you in Delhi!
	() Thanks

4th September 2005, 16:09	#34
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	Aseem, there is no rule that subs need a minimum of 140W RMS.
	() Thanks

4th September 2005, 19:22	#35
aseem Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Delhi Posts: 1,730 Thanked: 441 Times	Vivek who said there is a rule that subs need 140 RMS as minimum? I think you have read something out of context and jumped to conclusion. All subwoofers have an RMS rating. The least that I have come across till date is for the JBL 12 " bass tube for 140 RMS. It will run on 60 RMS as well, however this will lead to clipping of an amplifier and would cause thermal damage. So in order to drive the tube you need around 100 watts. To put it context, I am planning on buying Sony 504Z which has 125 watts bridged RMS. Now I am getting JBL 1000T for 5k and the JBL CS 1200 T for 5k as well. Now any fool will tell you that JBL 1000T is more powerful than JBL tube. However what any fool wont realize is that if I am running a 1000T with an under powered amp, this would lead to clipping, I wont be able to drive the 1000T to its potential. However with the tube, I will be able to drive it to its full potential without worrying about clipping and thermal damage.
	() Thanks

4th September 2005, 21:50	#36
drpullockaran BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: ERNAKULAM Posts: 962 Thanked: 385 Times	Guys cool down I am just a hardworking Orthodontist In one breath Aseem mentioned there would be competition for SAM. I beg to defer on that because I seriously believe half knowldge is dangerous and experimental fun at best. Sam is into audio in a big way(which I gather from his posts) so he can't be touched till someone from IIT with a degree in audio technology comes to this forum. I do teach Orthodontics to Post graduate students for my daily bread and butter and out there I could be prince(My teacher is Emperor) but cannot say the same for my audio or automobile knowledge. Sifting through web pages is just my hobby and take my advice with a pinch of salt as I just might be talking bull **** due to my half baked knowledge in the audio and automobile field. Bye and wear your seatbelts
	() Thanks

4th September 2005, 22:47	#37
drpullockaran BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: ERNAKULAM Posts: 962 Thanked: 385 Times	Aseem why do you want to spend a lakh? http://cgi.ebay.com/Panasonic-MXE-CQ...QQcmdZViewItem http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/Panason...-30844419.html http://www.dealtime.com/xPC-Panasoni...l_CD_Receivers http://www.caraudiodiscount.com/acat..._radio_cd.html This item is available for 280-300 dollars so why would you want to pay more for something that should be available for about Rs16000/- in the grey market and probably Rs20000/- in the authorized sales centre. The CQ9701 seems a good bargain though I have not heard the unit and personally I prefer clarity over volume so tube based car audio would serve me better but then again I cannot ever splurge on a valve tube based system. My present system is a puny 22watt4 Pioner setup which makes good sound at the expense of high Inner ear Cochlear hair destroying volume. http://umech.mit.edu/hearing/intro/intro.html Read this article to know how you percieve the sound you are hearing from your high powered units. This article is as simple as it gets I will gladly clarify if I can any doubts you have on this particular article. Remember these amps mention power in RMS and so should be more than enough for in car entertainment with those wanting 70watts4 except for those who want 5 channel and more audio. Bye and wear your seatbelts
	() Thanks

4th September 2005, 23:44	#38
aseem Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Delhi Posts: 1,730 Thanked: 441 Times	Hi Dr Pollo, thanks for the articles and your interest in this forum. After reading through your posts I am reminded of the mentos and LG dimaag ki batti jalao and innovative ideas ads. A suggestion/idea/mentos funda came to mind reading your posts.... Why dont you make "bye and wear your seatbelts as your signature" rather than typing it again and again
	() Thanks

5th September 2005, 09:33	#39
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,199 Thanked: 9,305 Times	i would not be worried about Sam guys. 1. D class and T class amps have their failings. beofre i delve into another lecture on electronics let me say that it could be 3-5 years before we see good T class amps readily available and by then JBL or whomever Sam is working for at that time will also be making and selling T/D class amps. example. D class amps were developed 20 years ago and you are only now seeing them that too only where space is a constraint. 2. excellent link on Cochlear Micromechanics dude!
	() Thanks

5th September 2005, 10:07	#40
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,997 Thanked: 2,378 Times View My Garage	Dr. Pullockaran, Thanks for http://umech.mit.edu/hearing/intro/intro.html Respect. Sam
	() Thanks

5th September 2005, 11:53	#42
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,199 Thanked: 9,305 Times	Aseem, I do appreciate your comments. I would suggest you read Vance Dickanson's book on loudspeakers (Vivek can give you the title) as a primer. I admit i have not read it but from what others tell me it will cover a lof of topics that you are not completely informed on and will save you a lot of time googling for.
	() Thanks

5th September 2005, 11:59	#43
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	Dickason's book is a gem. I have seen it. By the way navin, there is an interesting discussion going on in diyaudio.com in the Indian equivalents of the following DIY items thread of the loudspeakers section. All about TQWT and stuffing. Check it out.
	() Thanks

5th September 2005, 13:24	#45
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,199 Thanked: 9,305 Times	Dickanson's book is better than Weems I hear. I flipped though both about 10 yers ago at the NYC public Lib but by then it was too late for me.
	() Thanks