pioneer 4750

Autophile · 10th October 2005, 19:43

Aseem,

In any circumstances 4V signal is not better or worse than 2V signal. Its all about the system design.

And I don't need to defend anybody I am just trying to help you get your facts right.

I have done systems worth many times of most cars in which the voltage is not more than 2V. Like gunbir mentioned, this is a trend in car audio to throw around preamp voltage figures.

Try searching and browsing high end home audio products. Sometimes, in Home Theater systems, the subwoofer preamp cable has to travel 15-20 mtrs to get to the sub and has to run in close proximity with electrical interferences. You will NOT find any preamp out voltages mentioned in Home Audio simply because as a basic principle, It is not that important.

Even in the studio environment, where the music you hear is mastered, the preamp voltage is not even mentioned in the specs as at the end of the day, its all about calibration.

Again, this a trend and like your link with the diagram rightly points out, "A piece of equipment that has a higher maximum output voltage is not necessarily going to sound better than one which is only capable of 2 volts output."

McIntosh MX-5000 HU unit (Costs USD 1800) works on 2V pre out..can you suggest me the better sounding Sony or Pioneer Head Unit with higher preamp output. I guess if 4V or higher would have improved the sound then do you think that the legendary brand like McIntosh, Denon would produce 2V units for units which are on the top of HU market. By your rationale, for that amount of money they should be giving Head Unit with 20V output.

Price of head unit has nothing to do with the output voltage and FYI the 9855 is expensive because of Biolite display and the advanced DSP not because of output voltage.

Remeber no HU can deliver the peak voltage mentioned...Any doubts I can measure any HU for you.

Read my post again and again till you understand the topic. There is no point arguing without any grounds.

aseem · 10th October 2005, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autophile

Aseem,

Read my post again and again till you understand the topic. There is no point arguing without any grounds.

Jasdeep, you too are missing the point. Gunbir and I were discussing that Pioneer HU comes with 2.2 volt pre out as opposed to 4 v for the Sony (doesnt make the Sony sound better). Than Gunbir went ahead and asked me why is 4 v better/preffered, on which I stated that 4v is less susceptible to noise. Rather than acknowledging this fact, we are now debating on what the higher HU's are giving, or we should have good wiring, why this diversion? Lets stick to the original question, given two identical HU's apart from one being 2v and other being 4v, which do you think is better? which is more susceptible to noise?

I do not disagree that the costly HU's might have 2V pre outs. Thats not what we are discussing here. I in no way said or stated, that 2 different HU's having 2 V pre out and 4 V pre out, would imply that 4 V pre out will sound better. I never said that, please qoute me where I did!

I stated that 2 V pre out is more prone to noise than 4 V one, do you agree with this? Given two identical HU's, with same circuitry, the HU with 4 V pre out is less prone to noise and is more prefered than the HU with 2 V.
Please let me know if you disagree with this, and lets not divert to what more costly HU's have or havent.

Autophile · 10th October 2005, 20:11

My friend

I could come up with many more reference materials for you but lets just take your own links.

it is clearly written...

The higher output will allow you to reduce the gains on your amp (or any down line signal processor) which will lower the noise floor of your system.

That means that eventually you WILL have to turn your gains down and if you already have your gains at minimum with a 2v signal, then a 4v will clip your system.

If a stupid installer is running power cables and RCA cables together or running RCA Cables with cars power supply going to the back then the 4V is not gonna help you. The installation matters so does the most important words "Tuning & Calibration". There is no amount of signal voltage that will help you overcome alternator whine and ground loops.

If someone is so concerned about noise please try and use better quality interconnects, consult experienced installers and use better equipment.

Let me put it this way... If I were to go shopping for a HU for say 10K and I was faced with a few choices, I would see what sounds the best, what went inside the unit, which is the easiest to navigate etc. Output voltage is not even a factor for consideration.

aseem · 10th October 2005, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autophile

My friend
Let me put it this way... If I were to go shopping for a HU for say 10K and I was faced with a few choices, I would see what sounds the best, what went inside the unit, which is the easiest to navigate etc. Output voltage is not even a factor for consideration.

Let me put a simple question, given that the two HU's are identical and the only difference being one having 2 V pre out and the other having 4 V pre out, which one would you choose?

Autophile · 10th October 2005, 20:28

First of all there are no two identical headunits with different pre-out voltage. Its technically impossible. Certain components WILL be changed and that is bound to alter sound quality.

Again, I will choose whichever sounds better. And voltage is not even a factor.

aseem · 10th October 2005, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autophile

First of all there are no two identical headunits with different pre-out voltage. Its technically impossible. Certain components WILL be changed and that is bound to alter sound quality.

Again, I will choose whichever sounds better. And voltage is not even a factor.

Ok since I want you to answer this question, lets rephrase it. Given two very similar units, lets say Alpine 9855 and Alpine 9853. Given that they sound the same to you, and only difference being one has 2v pre out and the other has 4v pre out. Which one will you choose?

Autophile · 10th October 2005, 20:59

I think you can never get this....they both cannot sound the same. And even if they sound similar one will be better than the other to my ears. And I will choose the better one regardless of whether it is the 2V or the 4V.

Also, since you have named specific models, I am told by reliable sources that the Biolite display makes the unit noisier than the regular model. Thats why these units have display off feature and all this happens much before the signal leaves the head unit, before the preamp stage, before the debate over voltage begins.

I am leaving for today. If you still have doubts I can clear them tomorrow.

aseem · 10th October 2005, 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autophile

I am leaving for today. If you still have doubts I can clear them tomorrow.

Sure we will speak tommorow, by that time if you have any of your own doubts, I will be happy to clear them for you

gunbir · 10th October 2005, 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by aseem

I acknowledge that you are in audio industry and your opinion is more valued than mine. However in this instance you are not right. We all have something to learn! There are experts more experienced than you and me who state that 4V is better than 2.2V. Thats what drives the manufacturers to advertise higher pre-amp voltage figures. Rest of course we can continue argue for the sake of arguing.

Aseem... dude... Lets not even discuss my status in the audio industry. That is besides the point. I am an avid learner and enjoy the learning process. But rather than take for granted anything I read / am told, I prefer to experiment and when I have questions I ask people who have actual experience rather than google. I am fortunate that I have one of the most knowledgable people in the India as a friend and collegue.

I am also fortunate to have access to people like Eric Stevens, Matt Borgart, John Yi, John F Fairchild and other stalwarts of the US car audio industry. I have access to many IASCA champions from whom we have learnt stuff we would never try on our own cuz it sounded so outrageous and went against everything we had learnt. But, we know when we hear good advice and they were right.

There is a lot of stuff to car audio you will never find on websites. There is no substitute for theoretical knowledge and there is no substitute for experience either.

When I told you to measure your HUs preamp voltage, I was hoping you would ask how. I hoped to enlighten you and then you wouldnt argue anymore as the truth would be before your own eyes. There was a time, that was the only way I would learn, by seeing it with my own eyes.

But rather than ask questions, or giving me any indication that you know how to calibrate your system properly, you have only bombarded me with textbook (or rather internet) knowledge which more or less contradicts you and proves my point.

Trust me, I dont need to be here. I am NOT here to argue simply for the sake of arguing. I am here simply because I have been doing this (car audio) for around 13 years now and I'm passionate about it to the point that I care about people spending their hard earned money on the right stuff. This is not about "mine is bigger than yours". The whole objective is that people coming to this forum take away the right information and we as a community improve the state of car audio in our country.

Many years ago, we had similar debates over RMS vs PMPO. People used to ask us then too... "Do you mean to say Sony is lying?" Today, thanks to audiophiles everywhere, that is changing. Similarly, I hope you have opened your mind to the concept of buying products based on sound quality rather than buying them purely on basis of specs. While "specs buying" is usually better for the untrained ear, it is often abused by manufacturers to their advantage.

Finally, while I too have a response for every one of your posts, I do not wish to stretch this any further. However, here's is what I will say... How about if I told you there is an upgrade that will improve the sound of your system and none of the existing components in your system need to be changed. That upgrade is an "Open Mind".

You will do well to understand that people are willing to give you great advice, you only have to listen, observe and learn. That said, you are welcome to answer any of my earlier questions about your system and how you installed it (none of which you answered) and we will show you the mistakes you made. If you will fix them, you will end up with a much better sounding system. Of course, I am again assuming that is something you want.

Buffetfan · 11th October 2005, 00:50

My 2 cents on this....everything remaining the same....(and more often than they will not be same)....a 4 V O/p is always preferable to a 2 V / O/P....as it does allow you to reduce your amplification in the amp and hence reduce noise.....

On the other hand...if there is noise that is produced inside the HU (a few moving parts and display will always produce noise) than it is immaterial whether it is 2 V or 4V...a higher signal wil only save you from the cabling noise that may not be much anyway...

this is (2V versus 4 V) is a basic electronic principle.....what is the disconnect here??? It is a simple Y or N discussion...all things being equal...is 4V better than 2V. I would immediately say 4V

Aseem is also agreeing to your point that not all HUs are same....and that 2V and 4V is not the only deciding factor for buying a HU...the tolerance of the components used, design, features...all come together here...

navin · 11th October 2005, 09:48

Thank you Buffet.

In all this we forgot poor filcord's and tsk1979's request. 24 posts of discussing the virtues of 2V vs 4V. Even a theory nut like me is ashamed.

navin · 11th October 2005, 10:45

Aseem, Autophile, Gunbir,

I value your inputs. Next time pleae take this to another thread or to PM. ok!

Please PM me or post here to confirm you got this message.

Thanks

gunbir · 11th October 2005, 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

Aseem, Autophile, Gunbir,

I value your inputs. Next time pleae take this to another thread or to PM. ok!

Please PM me or post here to confirm you got this message.

Thanks

Thanks Navinji. I understand your stand on this and you are right.

But please refer posts # 13-15 and you can clearly see how it got diverted. I gave some very specific answers to some very specific questions. The diversions came from elsewhere. If the debate was private, I wouldnt even bother replying. But since it is public and wrong facts can mislead people who know look to this forum for answers, we had to engage in this debate.

I apologise if our debate caused folks here any inconvenience. But it was meant in their interest... will back off in the future...

Autophile · 11th October 2005, 11:41

Navin, sorry for this. But some people just argue without any grounds.

Let me tell them I am not a self declared audio guru....i am just trying to help people in understand the foundations of audio better. I don't need to prove anything to anyone because at the end of the day its not worth it.

tsk1979 · 11th October 2005, 11:45

I guess now we are through with the arguments. Well from what i could gather, there is no way the brightness of the LCD display be reduced in 4750.
How about using the blue screen protectors found on PDAs and mobile phones. On my phone the screen protector reduces the brightness significantly, and since the display is pretty bright, the screen protector could stay on during daytime also,
The big question is "Where do you get such sized screen protectors"

10th October 2005, 19:43	#31
Autophile BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 931 Thanked: 4 Times	Aseem, In any circumstances 4V signal is not better or worse than 2V signal. Its all about the system design. And I don't need to defend anybody I am just trying to help you get your facts right. I have done systems worth many times of most cars in which the voltage is not more than 2V. Like gunbir mentioned, this is a trend in car audio to throw around preamp voltage figures. Try searching and browsing high end home audio products. Sometimes, in Home Theater systems, the subwoofer preamp cable has to travel 15-20 mtrs to get to the sub and has to run in close proximity with electrical interferences. You will NOT find any preamp out voltages mentioned in Home Audio simply because as a basic principle, It is not that important. Even in the studio environment, where the music you hear is mastered, the preamp voltage is not even mentioned in the specs as at the end of the day, its all about calibration. Again, this a trend and like your link with the diagram rightly points out, "*A piece of equipment that has a higher maximum output voltage is not necessarily going to sound better than one which is only capable of 2 volts output."* McIntosh MX-5000 HU unit (Costs USD 1800) works on 2V pre out..can you suggest me the better sounding Sony or Pioneer Head Unit with higher preamp output. I guess if 4V or higher would have improved the sound then do you think that the legendary brand like McIntosh, Denon would produce 2V units for units which are on the top of HU market. By your rationale, for that amount of money they should be giving Head Unit with 20V output. Price of head unit has nothing to do with the output voltage and FYI the 9855 is expensive because of Biolite display and the advanced DSP not because of output voltage. Remeber no HU can deliver the peak voltage mentioned...Any doubts I can measure any HU for you. Read my post again and again till you understand the topic. There is no point arguing without any grounds. Last edited by Autophile : 10th October 2005 at 19:51.
	() Thanks

10th October 2005, 20:11	#33
Autophile BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 931 Thanked: 4 Times	My friend I could come up with many more reference materials for you but lets just take your own links. it is clearly written... *The higher output will allow you to reduce the gains on your amp (or any down line signal processor) which will lower the noise floor of your system.* That means that eventually you WILL have to turn your gains down and if you already have your gains at minimum with a 2v signal, then a 4v will clip your system. If a stupid installer is running power cables and RCA cables together or running RCA Cables with cars power supply going to the back then the 4V is not gonna help you. The installation matters so does the most important words "Tuning & Calibration". There is no amount of signal voltage that will help you overcome alternator whine and ground loops. If someone is so concerned about noise please try and use better quality interconnects, consult experienced installers and use better equipment. Let me put it this way... If I were to go shopping for a HU for say 10K and I was faced with a few choices, I would see what sounds the best, what went inside the unit, which is the easiest to navigate etc. Output voltage is not even a factor for consideration.
	() Thanks

10th October 2005, 20:28	#35
Autophile BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 931 Thanked: 4 Times	First of all there are no two identical headunits with different pre-out voltage. Its technically impossible. Certain components WILL be changed and that is bound to alter sound quality. Again, I will choose whichever sounds better. And voltage is not even a factor. Last edited by Autophile : 10th October 2005 at 20:32.
	() Thanks

10th October 2005, 20:59	#37
Autophile BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 931 Thanked: 4 Times	I think you can never get this....they both cannot sound the same. And even if they sound similar one will be better than the other to my ears. And I will choose the better one regardless of whether it is the 2V or the 4V. Also, since you have named specific models, I am told by reliable sources that the Biolite display makes the unit noisier than the regular model. Thats why these units have display off feature and all this happens much before the signal leaves the head unit, before the preamp stage, before the debate over voltage begins. I am leaving for today. If you still have doubts I can clear them tomorrow. Last edited by Autophile : 10th October 2005 at 21:01.
	() Thanks

11th October 2005, 00:50	#40
Buffetfan Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2005 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 1,128 Thanked: 195 Times	My 2 cents on this....everything remaining the same....(and more often than they will not be same)....a 4 V O/p is always preferable to a 2 V / O/P....as it does allow you to reduce your amplification in the amp and hence reduce noise..... On the other hand...if there is noise that is produced inside the HU (a few moving parts and display will always produce noise) than it is immaterial whether it is 2 V or 4V...a higher signal wil only save you from the cabling noise that may not be much anyway... this is (2V versus 4 V) is a basic electronic principle.....what is the disconnect here??? It is a simple Y or N discussion...all things being equal...is 4V better than 2V. I would immediately say 4V Aseem is also agreeing to your point that not all HUs are same....and that 2V and 4V is not the only deciding factor for buying a HU...the tolerance of the components used, design, features...all come together here... Last edited by Buffetfan : 11th October 2005 at 00:53.
	() Thanks

11th October 2005, 09:48	#41
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,176 Thanked: 9,264 Times	Thank you Buffet. In all this we forgot poor filcord's and tsk1979's request. 24 posts of discussing the virtues of 2V vs 4V. Even a theory nut like me is ashamed.
	() Thanks

11th October 2005, 10:45	#42
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,176 Thanked: 9,264 Times	Aseem, Autophile, Gunbir, I value your inputs. Next time pleae take this to another thread or to PM. ok! Please PM me or post here to confirm you got this message. Thanks
	() Thanks

11th October 2005, 11:41	#44
Autophile BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 931 Thanked: 4 Times	Navin, sorry for this. But some people just argue without any grounds. Let me tell them I am not a self declared audio guru....i am just trying to help people in understand the foundations of audio better. I don't need to prove anything to anyone because at the end of the day its not worth it.
	() Thanks

11th October 2005, 11:45	#45
tsk1979 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 23,717 Thanked: 22,823 Times View My Garage	I guess now we are through with the arguments. Well from what i could gather, there is no way the brightness of the LCD display be reduced in 4750. How about using the blue screen protectors found on PDAs and mobile phones. On my phone the screen protector reduces the brightness significantly, and since the display is pretty bright, the screen protector could stay on during daytime also, The big question is "Where do you get such sized screen protectors"
	() Thanks