[AlphaKilo]

But Binaiks sir, their success in HCV's market doesnt mean they would be appreciated in the Bus sector too. Though I accept that MANs are world famous for their buses, but I dont think Volvo, which has the largest market share(in terms of international company in India) would be sleeping like Tatas or AL's and let MAN take away even 1 % of their share. Moreover, it is set in the minds of the general public that volvos are the best in the business, example no one even respects a Merc, come on a Merc bus!!There was a time when Merc's were the only German car manufacturer(with a plant) in India and had a huge HCV market with the Tatas and are still considered the status symbol. Such is the impact of volvo.
When one has to compete in this market, then it is quite tough, because already AL has a FE viking(correct me if I am wrong) in service with most Private operators like ABT, ARC, KPNs and many more mass operators. Lets wait and watch.

[julupani]

Originally Posted by binaiks

Sir, Please come down to South India. MAN has been selling in really good numbers, and there are lots of operators who switched over to MAN from ALL/TML. MAN has certainly been able to replace ALL/TML from a good portion of the Rigid/Tractor segment atleast down south.

MANs dominate the Rigid Container carrier market here, and near a container terminal atleast 50% of the trucks (Rigids) are MANs. Trailers are mainly U-Trucks here, with TATA coming in second. (AMW has a really small share here).

I know about MAN's decent success, but I wouldn't call that replacement, rather upgrading. Those operators have moved to higher powered trucks to provide for faster delivery times and thus need the MANs. And like I said, there is not much option for those operators. Which product would they buy, if they wanted to buy a Tata or Leyland?? Thus they are not exactly picking a MAN over a Leyland or a Tata

Similarly, MAN has to able to invent a sort of segment for itself. May be provide a 240-260hp engine on a FE bus chassis, with optional FBV, then may be MAN buses will find a niche and sell in some numbers. Even if they do come up with a 180/160hp chassis, I doubt they will pose a threat to Tata or Leyland. The problem they will face with STU orders will I think be a volume issue. I doubt MAN-Force will be able to match the speed with which Tata or Leyland can complete an order. And overall private operators will still stick with their trusted Leylands.

[D33-PAC]

Originally Posted by binaiks

Sir, Please come down to South India. MAN has been selling in really good numbers, and there are lots of operators who switched over to MAN from ALL/TML. MAN has certainly been able to replace ALL/TML from a good portion of the Rigid/Tractor segment atleast down south.

MANs dominate the Rigid Container carrier market here, and near a container terminal atleast 50% of the trucks (Rigids) are MANs. Trailers are mainly U-Trucks here, with TATA coming in second. (AMW has a really small share here).

What I said was, if MAN is able to come out with a decent FE Chassis, (Note, "Chassis") they would do decent numbers. No body is talking of FBVs here. FBVs sell very poorly in the FE bus market - precisely the reason why iT09 has not been a runaway success.

Speak for your state sir! Andhra is part of South India and MAN has almost no footprint here. Like Julupani said MAN is in a niche market, or atleast in Andhra, here you'll only find MANs in coal mines and other mining related sectors(Quarries). And even in those sectors MAN trucks play the minority role in the fleets, as they're dominated by Volvos , AMWs, and Actros .

[pypkmsrikanth]

Matching the service network of ALL / TML will take time. It's not going to be easy for MAN in this aspect with even Volvo facing issues with break downs on the highways. MAN would certainly eat into the 12M market no doubts but talking of ALL packing its bag is very premature. Let us not forget unless you have the volumes it is going to be difficult to match the STU's expectation on the price front.

[binaiks]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Moreover, it is set in the minds of the general public that volvos are the best in the business, example no one even respects a Merc, come on a Merc bus!!

Aren't we talking of FE buses here? Volvos do not play in this market. So MAN is to compete with ALL and TML, plus the proposed MNAL FE Chassis.

Originally Posted by pypkmsrikanth

Matching the service network of ALL / TML will take time. It's not going to be easy for MAN in this aspect with even Volvo facing issues with break downs on the highways.

AFAIK, MAN trucks are maintained through the existing Force motors workshops. Force motors has a huge fan following in Kerala (Their Traveller sells huge), and hence MAN would be hitting the jackpot in Kerala for sure.

[AlphaKilo]

In the Intercity transport, except for the AL and TML, I dont think right now there is any competition but even if MNAL comes in, I dont think they would be priced as cheap as the AL or TML. So MAN is also not going to place a fully built bus in the price range of the AL or TML. With my experience about the mentality of the Germans, I can assure that MAN will place it somewhere above the band of AL/TML chassis so as to differentiate their quality from the rest.

[Transsenger]

We are no more in days when an operator had to choose between a 1510 or a Viking. In the current scenario, the product being new is not at all a matter of concern. This is evident from the fact that SML Isuzu is today the second only to Volvo in premium segment (in terms of sale numbers).

Now about the pricing, AL and TML bus chassis today are not so cheap. A 12M chassis with front and rear air suspension and 230HpCRS engine would cost about 13-15lakhs(if not more). If we compare the pricing of AMW, MAN and UTrucks they almost fall in the same range (22-28lakhs). So it would not be difficult for MAN to price attractively. And it really seems MAN is serious about mass volumes, hence has come up with a FE bus. Simultaneously they would be entering the premium segment with a FB rear engine buses like lionstar etc in future.
Operators prefer a 12M because they have no other options. An AL 12M is the most high end option available today in the intercity/tourist chassis category. Service support is not real concern anymore. Most companies offer road side assistance.

[Ashley2]

As told 12M is the highest powered FE bus available today in market with all the essential safety and comfort features.Unless the product is proven its high time we speculate on Man eating the sales of 12M.
But as Man is pitched directly against 12M what ever the sales% it gets is taken from 12M only.Also brand being success in one segment need not be success in other segment - Eicher LCV Vs HCV.
So lets wait and watch how the product performs.

[julupani]

Originally Posted by Transsenger

We are no more in days when an operator had to choose between a 1510 or a Viking. In the current scenario, the product being new is not at all a matter of concern. This is evident from the fact that SML Isuzu is today the second only to Volvo in premium segment (in terms of sale numbers).

Now about the pricing, AL and TML bus chassis today are not so cheap. A 12M chassis with front and rear air suspension and 230HpCRS engine would cost about 13-15lakhs(if not more). If we compare the pricing of AMW, MAN and UTrucks they almost fall in the same range (22-28lakhs). So it would not be difficult for MAN to price attractively. And it really seems MAN is serious about mass volumes, hence has come up with a FE bus. Simultaneously they would be entering the premium segment with a FB rear engine buses like lionstar etc in future.
Operators prefer a 12M because they have no other options. An AL 12M is the most high end option available today in the intercity/tourist chassis category. Service support is not real concern anymore. Most companies offer road side assistance.

I completely agree with this, the only way for MAN to generate decent volumes is to compete in the high hp FE bus market. They should provide a 250 odd hp chassis, without pricing way over what Leyland does. As of now Tata does not even compete in this segment.

[Ashley2]

Originally Posted by binaiks

... FBVs sell very poorly in the FE bus market - precisely the reason why iT09 has not been a runaway success.

Just for Information..
iT09 is a independent coach and can be built on any OEM's chassis and its not a FBV unlike starbus/Globus.

[binaiks]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

Just for Information..
iT09 is a independent coach and can be built on any OEM's chassis and its not a FBV unlike starbus/Globus.

Would've been better if you have quoted the entire statement from me, than quoting a small portion. I had mentioned it back then itself that iT09 is not a Leyland FBV. Quoted below is my earlier post:

Originally Posted by binaiks

Agreeing 100% to the above statement. Not a single fully built bus from Leyland has clicked in the market - the Luxura came and went, the iT09 (though not a Leyland FBV) didn't sell well either, nor did the Leyland city buses. ALL still depends on their Chassis for survival. They do make really good buses, but aren't marketed that well.

[007 Bond]

Its a 4 cylinder engine powered FE bus. Body is built by Azad (jaipur), majority of interiors by Pinnacle industries.

Costing wise should be around Rs 60 to 65 lakhs fully built. launch already is delayed by 1 month now expected this month. Reason for delay no mobile charging units made available in earlier design.

First batch of 30 vehicles in process.

[Ashley2]

Originally Posted by 007 Bond

Its a 4 cylinder engine powered FE bus. Body is built by Azad (jaipur), majority of interiors by Pinnacle industries.

Likely to be Powered by 220HP engine.
The only bus with a 4 cylinder engine.

[pypkmsrikanth]

If its going to be a 220 HP engine, the estimated price of Rs.60 - 65 lakhs seem to be on the higher side for a FE model. At 220 HP it would be an almost like to like competitor for 12M ALL coach. Any idea on the cost of a fully loaded 12M coach.

[binaiks]

Originally Posted by 007 Bond

Its a 4 cylinder engine powered FE bus. Body is built by Azad (jaipur), majority of interiors by Pinnacle industries.

Costing wise should be around Rs 60 to 65 lakhs fully built.

At this cost, it more likely sounds like a disaster. Adding 10 more lakhs, Tour Operators can get a Volvo B7R.

Originally Posted by pypkmsrikanth

Any idea on the cost of a fully loaded 12M coach.

IIRC, it would cost around 40 Lakhs. Around 25 Lakhs for the Body and about 15 for the chassis (vague memory).