[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by Shome

Mid - course guidance makes sense, air launched Brahmos gives credibility to tracking the 40k ft altitude, a brahmos without a warhead would definitely have enough energy for a kinetic kill, as for hacking the AfNet system - I have zero knowledge on this subject.

The whole timeline of the reactions from both countries further adds to the mystery and add to that the lukewarm reaction from Pakistan.

All in all it's a very fishy situation which the general public will probably never get closure on.

I don't know if this is allowed here but am quoting a post made by member on an Indian Defense Forum whose line of thinking closely matches my own and who, in my opinion, is asking some pretty damning questions. If we read between the lines, the answers are even murkier.

Credit: Poster at DFI

Originally Posted by Arihant Roy

This is far from an accidental Brahmos launch. There are so many minute details in this that make the entire episode so spooky.

1. The missile round was fired from an operational TEL of an Army regiment or airforce squadron. Brahmos is a wooden round and the missile is hermetically stored inside the canister. So the missile would be having a perfectly functional warhead and not an inert warhead as many are speculating.

2. Before a missile is actually launched, a battery of self diagnostic tests on the missile are carried out which indicates the health and actual status of the missile. You don't simply press a red circular button and the missile takes off. If any component or mission critical LRU would have malfunctioned, the C2 element of the TEL wouldn't clear the missile for launch.

3. Then there is the issue of missile trajectory planning, waypoints and target data in terms of coordinates, 3D profile for dsmac matching , attack angle, azimuth and a host of other parameters that need to be fed into the missile before the missile is actually ready for launch. An accidentally launched missile won't fly for ___ kms inside Indian airspace, then make a right turn and head for Pakistan

4. The missile was flying in airspace controlled by Bhatinda . Despite falling in an obscure town with acres of empty space, the missile managed to fall on a warehouse/cold storage / structure and destroy it . The missile could have simply fallen on an empty field devoid of any features. We have seen some Russian missiles going off target and hitting open ground in Ukraine despite being carefully targeted at militarily significant targets and here we have a missile which despite being accident launched managed to destroy a building . This is just awesome.

5. Had the missile been inert without any warhead, it wouldn't have brought down that entire structure. It would just have made a big gaping hole in the walls and then crash to the ground. This was an armed missile.

6. The Pakistanis didn't have any clue as to what had happened and what had hit them on 9th . It's very likely that their AD centres didn't get a good track or failed to detect the Brahmos missile throughout its flight envelope. Only when the explosion happened and locals had gathered around did they know that something has indeed happened. Even then, it took them an entire day to find out what it was. And only after that did ISPR hold a press conference.

7. Had it really been an incident of malfunctioning equipment and accidental launch, we would have informed them on 9th itself. Heck, we could have come out with a press release on 10th itself just after their press conference that our missile had malfunctioned and we were sorry for the incident .

Instead we waited for an entire day and then came out with a really concise and short press statement. Doesn't it ring any bell?

8. The MoD had postponed Def-Expo '22 and Vayu Shakti indefinitely just before this accident launch. You can explain the postponement of Def-Expo due to the absence of many international OEM due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine but how will explain the cancellation of Vayu Shakti especially when IAF assets had been going about their demos and practise runs for a week before March 7 when suddenly we heard that the exercise had been postponed.

9. Had ISPR not held a press conference and disclosed the series of events, we wouldn't have known. The GoI had no intention of revealing this. Usually when there is a misfire or an accident that involves a missile mistakenly crossing over into enemy territory, people usually inform their neighbour at the earliest. We on the other hand took our own sweet time and then just said sorry. This is an example of a very nonchalant casual attitude . As if we don't give a damn.

Connect the dots.

P.S: The initial videos which came out of Pakistan on the night of 9th March showed that there were a LOT (10+) of ambulances at the site of the impact (which was said to be the site of trainer aircraft crash till then). What was the use of so may ambulances if there were no casualties?

[V.Narayan]

Navy and DRDO test new home grown helicopter launched anti-ship missile
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/watc...n-navy-2986259

DRDO and the Indian Navy test fired a new air launched anti-ship missile. The link above gives details and a short video. This is clearly different from the Brahmos and possibly smaller and lighter to be compatible with launch by a helicopter. Further details are not available. It is very heartening to observe that DRDO, defence PSUs and the Govt are taking self reliance in defence seriously.

In the national endeavour of development, design and production of indigenous weapon systems at a point a country and its defence industry reaches a critical mass of quality, technology and manufacturing competence from where onwards it's ability to develop and produce grows exponentially. China reached that point sometime in the 2005- 2010 period. We at last seem to be headed that way maybe by 2030.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

It is very heartening to observe that DRDO, defence PSUs and the Govt are taking self reliance in defence seriously.

However, it is disappointing that India has not yet mastered sub-sonic cruise missile technology. Brahmos is 3x more expensive than a typical sub-sonic cruise missile while ballistic missiles are not so accurate.

It's a bit odd that Russia has not helped India in this department. Pakistan already has a number of surface to surface, ship launched and air launched sub-sonic cruise missiles (Babur, Ra'ad, Zarb), thanks to China.

[V.Narayan]

∆∆∆∆∆
SmartCat, if you can afford a supersonic anti ship missile that is preferred to a sub sonic one mainly because it offers little or no reaction time to the target. The Kh-35E and Harpoon SSMs are what you call cruise missiles. Yes we are missing land attack cruise missiles like the Tomahawk that can accurately fly a nape of the earth route to the target and hit a land target deep inside accurately. That we need in the Navy.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

SmartCat, if you can afford a supersonic anti ship missile that is preferred to a sub sonic one mainly because it offers little or no reaction time to the target.

OK good point. Cruise missiles are always launched in salvos because a good number of missiles don't reach the targets, thanks to air defense systems. I guess "cost per target destroyed" of sub-sonic & supersonic cruise missiles would be similar.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Navy and DRDO test new home grown helicopter launched anti-ship missile

Good stuff! A helicopter launched anti ship missile is a very handy bit of kit to add some stand off punch to the rotary wing assets of the IN. Having a homebrew solution is all the better. Wonder if it could be adapted to be used off of fixed wing assets too? Could see it on the P-8s perhaps.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

However, it is disappointing that India has not yet mastered sub-sonic cruise missile technology.

Was wondering, has India ever considered something like Kongsberg's Naval Strike Missile?

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

However, it is disappointing that India has not yet mastered sub-sonic cruise missile technology. Brahmos is 3x more expensive than a typical sub-sonic cruise missile while ballistic missiles are not so accurate.

It's a bit odd that Russia has not helped India in this department. Pakistan already has a number of surface to surface, ship launched and air launched sub-sonic cruise missiles (Babur, Ra'ad, Zarb), thanks to China.

Though your criticism is somewhat valid, IMHO, it is a bit off the mark.

1.) According to publicly available sources, a limited number of Nirbhays' (powered by the Saturn NPO-36MT) have been inducted into service.

2.) The indigenous Manik STFE was validated on the Nirbhay frame (called ITCM) late last year. The successful test of the ITCM paved way for the LRLACM (Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile) programme to proceed on full throttle. Considering that we have attained sufficient maturity on seeker technology, I think that the LRLACM programme ought to reach its conclusion successfully within the next couple of years.

3.) The above mentioned LRLACM will offer two major advantages to the Armed forces:

A.) It will be compatible with BrahMos VLS launchers. That means naval integration would be easy and comparatively quicker.

B.) While the majority of its flight profile would be sub-sonic, the terminal stage is supposed to be ram-jet powered and thus super-sonic. This would increase its survivability against terminal-AD systems (generally a weakness of subsonic cruise missiles).

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

SmartCat, if you can afford a supersonic anti ship missile that is preferred to a sub sonic one mainly because it offers little or no reaction time to the target.

In fact, even super-sonic cruise missiles can be countered effectively by a networked multi-layered AD system (Aegis comes to mind immediately). The USN has been ready for the super-sonic cruise missile threat from the 80s because of the threat posed by the Soviet P800s and other such missiles. That is why we (and every other major power) is fixated on hyper-sonic cruise missiles. Our BrahMos, though devastatingly effective against something like the Pakistan Navy and maybe the PLAN to an extent (even that scope is narrowing every day) would fail miserably against something like a USN CBG. These CBG carry so much firepower that they can launch upto 20 SM-6s (or other similar missiles) for every BrahMos type missile launched (and that is if the launching platform can get into position without being destroyed by the USN air assets first). Introduction of a mature DEW system would mean even hypersonic cruise missiles are fair game. The PLAN is said to be 10 years away from being able to deploy such technology reliably on its assets though so that's a major relief.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

A.) It will be compatible with BrahMos VLS launchers. That means naval integration would be easy and comparatively quicker.

Sensible that they've engineered it to fit into the same VLS. Especially if it speeds up cross service implementation like so.

In fact, even super-sonic cruise missiles can be countered effectively by a networked multi-layered AD system (Aegis comes to mind immediately). The USN has been ready for the super-sonic cruise missile threat from the 80s because of the threat posed by the Soviet P800s and other such missiles. That is why we (and every other major power) is fixated on hyper-sonic cruise missiles.

Everyone is in a race to slap the word hypersonic on their latest missile programme, it's kinda become a buzzword (bit like every company and their mother finds a way to shoehorn blockchain into what they do) in the sense that there are some out there that aren't really hypersonic but would like to trade on the name and the connotations. Basically it's a bit of a wild west out there - I imagine it'll be a decade probably before we get some semblance of order and clarity regarding just what the actual capability is and who has that capability. Though no guessing who the players will be near the pointy end.

Introduction of a mature DEW system would mean even hypersonic cruise missiles are fair game. The PLAN is said to be 10 years away from being able to deploy such technology reliably on its assets though so that's a major relief.

I feel like directed energy systems have been a fever dream since the Reagan era but it seems that they only pop up occasionally in a Congressional budget request (I speak in the US context of course). The Zummwalt class for eg has all that electrical power generation head room built in to cater for DEWs, but we've not even seen it used for testing yet. The other vapourware tech that excites the imagination are rail guns and even those make bit part appearances through Senate Armed Services Committee reports if that (for the US), and the occasional deliberate social media leak from behind the Great Firewall for the Chinese.

I do think the very real threat posed by the PLAN in the Pacific and the ensuing naval arms race that is well and truly underway means we'll start to see serious money thrown behind a lot of these programmes by all sides, and progress will follow rapidly.

Coming back to domestic missile development, the more the merrier. All progress is very welcome.

[dragracer567]

India has finally ordered its first indigenous AA missile - the Astra Mk1. This is significant as the Indian Air Force had been desperately searching for a replacement for the Russian R-73 and R-77 after they underperformed during the confrontation with Pakistan in 2019 though reportedly the impressive jammers and the SU-30 MKI's maneuverability allowed it to dodge the AMRAAM missiles shot at them.

Coming back to the Astra Mk1, it has a range of about 110 km and will initially be integrated into the SU-30s and Navy's Mig-29Ks while the Tejas and AF's Mig-29 will get this missile later. Meanwhile, the Mk2 which has a dual-pulse rocket motor will be tested this month and will be a game-changer with a range of 160 km - similar to the AMRAAM or the Meteor.

There is an interesting anecdote in the article about the Meteor missile which was originally considered after the 2019 confrontation with Pakistan but had to be ditched due to the following reasons:

1) While it can be integrated into the Mirage-2000 and the SU-30, the onboard radar "would not do justice to its capability".

2) It can be integrated into the Tejas but only in the Mk1A variant with the AESA radar, that too only the indigenous Uttam radar in the later versions, not the Israeli one that will be used in the initial models.

3) Each missile costs around 25 crores, compare this with the Astra Mk1 which costs about 6-7 crore (not sure how much the mk2 will cost).

Because of these reasons, the meteor will be limited to the Rafale.

Just like its fighters, the Indian Air Force (and Navy) has become a Caesar's salad (or Avial if you are a South India ) of AA missiles. Just recently, the production of the ASRAAM missile started in India but I believe the only fighter that can fire this missile in our inventory is the SEPECAT Jaguar (and maybe the Tejas too, not entirely sure). Also, if the Indian Navy chooses the F/A-18 Super Hornet which seems more than likely, we would probably end up having the sidewinder and AMRAAM as well. Inventory management is really gonna be a challenge!

[SmartCat]

This is a very curious tweet. I thought it was a mistake. How can S-300 missiles be used to strike land targets?



But surprise! Both S-300 and S-400 have a "land attack" mode. They can used as a surface to surface missile too.

Russia Now Firing S-300 Surface-To-Air Missiles At Land Targets In Ukraine: Official
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...raine-official

According to this account, the Belarusian military tested its S-300 air defense systems against “important ground targets on the territory of a potential enemy” during an exercise in the same year. Belarusian officials claimed this was the first time that the country had experimented with this capability, which allows an “adapted … S-300 to destroy ground targets tens of kilometers from firing positions.”

The possibility of hitting stationary ground targets was originally incorporated by the developers into the design of the S-300 air defense system adopted for service in 1979, as well as all its subsequent modifications.”

The missiles used in the S-300P series have inertial guidance systems with updates provided by radio link and, for the terminal phase, semi-active radar homing. It’s highly unlikely that, under most circumstances, it would be possible to illuminate a ground or surface target for the missile to home in on, but the inertial guidance and radio updates presumably provide enough accuracy to hit larger, area targets. This is not unheard of. The giant Talos naval surface-to-air missile also had a secondary land and surface attack capability for area targets, but it used a nuclear warhead for that application.

[V.Narayan]

Hypersonic Missiles

Articles by journalists on hypersonic missiles are all over the internet especially after China claimed to have developed one, followed by India’s launch of a prototype and the Russian forces in Ukraine using a Kinzhal hypersonic missile to hit a target. Many on Team BHP are very knowledgeable so this post may be of less value to them. The rest of the enthusiasts I thought might like to know a little more in layman’s terms of this weapon. Hence this post.

What is hypersonic?

Describing a vehicle as hypersonic means that it flies much faster than 5 times the speed of sound, which is 1,225 kilometers per hour at sea level and 1,067 kph at 35,000 feet where passenger jets fly. So at altitude that’s a speed in excess of 5400 kmph or 1500 metres per second. A bullet from a powerful rifle typically does ~900 metres per second give or take a little.

Hypersonic systems have been in use for decades. All of the intercontinental ballistic missiles {ICBM} in the world’s nuclear arsenals are hypersonic, reaching about 24,000 kmph at their maximum velocity on re-entry.

ICBMs are launched on large rockets and then fly on a predictable trajectory that takes them out of the atmosphere into space and then back into the atmosphere again. The new generation of hypersonic missiles fly very fast, but not as fast as ICBMs. They are launched on smaller rockets that keep them within the upper reaches of the atmosphere and do not necessarily fly a predictable ballistic trajectory.

What is a hypersonic flight path

The diagramme below describes it best. A hypersonic flight path is manoueverable like that of a cruise missile. The hypersonic missile flies between say 200,000 feet {60,000 metres} to sea level typically starting its flight at a higher altitude and coming down to a lower altitude in the homing phase. It can change course in flight making its flight path unpredictable other than being blindingly fast and these two factors make shooting it down impossible with current and forseeable technology.



Types of hypersonic missiles

There are three different types of hypersonic missiles:

(a) aero-ballistic,
(b) glide vehicles and
(c) cruise missiles.

A hypersonic aero-ballistic system is dropped from an aircraft, accelerated to hypersonic speed using a rocket and then follows a ballistic, meaning unpowered, trajectory. The system Russian forces used to attack Ukraine, the Kinzhal, is an aero-ballistic missile. The aero-ballistic is the earliest variant as a launch from a mother aircraft gives the missile some speed and altitude at launch itself.

A hypersonic glide vehicle is boosted on a rocket to high altitude and then glides to its target, manoeuvering along the way. Examples of hypersonic glide vehicles include China’s Dongfeng-17, Russia’s Avangard and the U.S. Navy’s Conventional Prompt Strike system. U.S. officials have expressed concern that China’s hypersonic glide vehicle technology is further advanced than the U.S. system. But I find that very hard to believe.

A hypersonic cruise missile is boosted by a rocket to hypersonic speed and then uses an air-breathing engine called a scramjet to sustain that speed. Because they ingest air into their engines, hypersonic cruise missiles require smaller launch rockets than hypersonic glide vehicles, which means they can cost less and be launched from more places. Hypersonic cruise missiles are under development by China and the U.S. The U.S. reportedly conducted a test flight of a scramjet hypersonic missile in March 2020.

Why are hypersonics difficult to defend against

The primary reason nations are developing these next-generation hypersonic weapons is how difficult they are to defend against due to their speed, manoeuverability and flight path. Radars struggle to track them due to their speed. Even if you were lucky enough to get a SAM missile fired off that SAMs guidance and homing system won’t be able to cope with locking on to a target closing in on the SAM missile at say Mach 9.0 {Mach 7.0 of the hypersonic missile and Mach 2.0+ of the SAM itself }. The ability to change flight paths makes them immune to the anti-ballistic missile defences that some countries have put up.

However as with any other weapon hypersonics are not the proverbial silver bullet. They can cause damage or destruction to a large warship or building or runway but there are many other weapons that can do that with a high degree of accuracy and at a fraction of the cost.

Where does India stand

We are developing two hypersonics. One is Brahmos-IIK a 1000 kms weapon which is being developed jointly with Russia and is in the cruise missile category. The other is Shaurya a 750 kms weapon which seems to be more like the glide vehicle category. But these are only guesses and I could be totally off the mark. What will be there role in our strategic assets will unfold with time.

The Chinese DF-17 is a intermediate range ballistic missile with a hypersonic missile as its warhead. They went down tat route as they believed it was the fastest practical manner to have something, albeit crude, operational at the earliest.

The only live use of a hypersonic occurred recently in the Ukraine war where a Russian Kinzhal missile, seen below being carried by a MiG-31, was used against a target in Odessa.

[RM Motorsports]

First clear images of the SAMAR air defence system.

[RM Motorsports]

Bharat Dynamics Limited displays few of cutting edge missiles at Defexpo 2022.

The white missile on the ground is the VL-SRSAM and the green tube like system is the MIGM or multi influential ground mine.

[RM Motorsports]

Good ol' classic Akash SAM at Defexpo 22.

[V.Narayan]

New generation Agni Prime IRBM test fired successfully for a second time

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...issile-3452100

India test fired successfully, for a second time, a new generation intermediate range ballistic missile {IRBM} on 21st October 2022. The new missile has a range of up to 2000 kms and may be a replacement for the now old Prithvi series of SRBMs {Short Range Ballistic Missile}. A range of 2000 kms would enable it to cover all of Pakistan while based deep in Central India. The missile is containerized and mobile.

Photo Source: NDTV