[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

New generation Agni Prime IRBM test fired successfully for a second time

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...issile-3452100

India test fired successfully, for a second time, a new generation intermediate range ballistic missile {IRBM} on 21st October 2022. The new missile has a range of up to 2000 kms and may be a replacement for the now old Prithvi series of SRBMs {Short Range Ballistic Missile}. A range of 2000 kms would enable it to cover all of Pakistan while based deep in Central India. The missile is containerized and mobile.

Photo Source: NDTV

The most significant outcome of this test is that the MIRV (Multiple Independently targettable Re-entry Vehicle) technology has finally been validated publicly by DRDO (and the GoI by extension) by destroying 2 ships far apart with the same missile. While Defence enthusiasts always postulated about the existence of this capability in Indian hands (just like the ASAT capabilities) since the late 2000s, it is always good that such capabilities are made public as they do influence the security calculations of our adversaries by increasing our threat profile in their analysis and thus theoretically dissuading them from unnecessarily flaring up tensions.

[aim120]

Also guys did you notice in defense expo the surface to air SAMAR defense systems. The SAMAR 1 uses R73E missile while the SAMAR 2 uses R27T missiles.

But whats interesting about this, is they use missiles which have gone past the shelf life period. Good way to use them, since our forces will all transition to Astra series of missiles. Even the Rafale jet will get Astra missiles, as per agreement signed in defense expo.

[V.Narayan]

India successfully tests Ballistic Missile Defence Interceptor capable of neutralising long-range adversary missiles

https://indianexpress.com/article/in...-test-8245478/

India conducted the first successful flight test of the Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) interceptor missile capable of neutralising long-range missiles and aircraft, from the APJ Abdul Kalam Island off the Odisha coast on Wednesday.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) conducted a successful maiden flight-test of phase-II Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) interceptor AD-1 missile with a large kill altitude bracket from the APJ Abdul Kalam Island off the coast of Odisha on November 2. The system, which is capable of striking down incoming adversary missiles and aircraft, has been developed under the Ballistic Missile Defence programme.

The AD-1 (Air Defence) is a long-range interceptor missile designed for both low exo-atmospheric and endo-atmospheric interception of long-range ballistic missiles as well as aircraft. The missile is propelled by a two-stage solid motor and equipped with an indigenously developed advanced control system and a navigation and guidance algorithm to precisely guide the vehicle to the targets that move at very high speeds.

During the flight-test, all the subsystems performed as per expectations and were validated by the data captured by a number of range sensors including radar, telemetry and electro-optical tracking stations deployed to capture the flight data. DRDO scientists said the fully functional ballistic missile defence system contained high-power radars and could potentially protect large areas from the adversary missile or other air attacks.

Putting the whole system in place to provide defence around the 4 or 5 most important/largest cities may take another 5 to 6 years. All in all a most laudable achievement by India.

[V.Narayan]

Agni-V with a 7000 kms range test fires

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...346-2022-12-17
https://s.tnn.in/L5Qtv8xLbCaBi6hn6

Agni-V hitherto had a 5000 kms range that from Central India could cover most of China but not the industry rich North-Eastern sector of that country. On 15th December India test fired a newer lighter version of the Agni-V with a 20% reduction in weight which enables it to go out to 7000 kms. At that range all of China gets covered not only from Central India but the Indian peninsula too. This test fire coming at the time of the Chinese instigated clash in Arunachal Pradesh is poignant. Agni-V being a cannister fired solid fuel missile can be flexibly deployed and launched with very little run up time. Given China's studied belligerence and hand-in-glove style with Pakistan we can't get Agni-V into squadron service soon enough.

File photo of Agni-V

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

On 15th December India test fired a newer lighter version of the Agni-V with a 20% reduction in weight which enables it to go out to 7000 kms.

In recent times, we have seen that nuclear weapons can deter a nuclear attack but it cannot deter a conventional attack (India striking Pakistan in 2016 & 2019) or China-style creeping aggression. China can afford to be aggressive because their population/industrial centers are thousands of kms away from Indian border.

What we need is missiles that can deliver 5 to 20 ton conventional warheads like MOAB (Mother/Father of all Bombs) all the way to China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_MOAB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_All_Bombs

That is, utilize the weight savings to carry more conventional payload rather than increase range.

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

In recent times, we have seen that nuclear weapons can deter a nuclear attack but it cannot deter a conventional attack (India striking Pakistan in 2016 & 2019) or China-style creeping aggression.

This is exactly what George Fernandes said after we trounced Pakistain in Kargil in 2000.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000106/main1.htm

Defence Minister George Fernandes said Pakistan was continuously holding a nuclear threat against India. “They held out a nuclear threat to us on May 31, 1999, and again yesterday without absorbing the real meaning of nuclearisation that it can only deter the use of nuclear weapons, but not a conventional war,” he said.

Emphasising that future wars would be “limited wars” unlike total wars like World War I and World War II, the Defence Minister said countries like China had in their military doctrine been projecting that future wars would be “local border wars”.

He said India’s success and grasp of “limited war” was due to the ability of its defence forces to fight and win such a war at a time, ground and means of fighting chosen by the aggressor.

Mr Fernandes said India would require to have a requisite deterrence strategy at the conventional as well as nuclear level and efforts for continued attention to the issue.

Conventional deterrence (called out in bold by me above) is what you're also alluding to. I believe that's being built by us in the form of the Brahmos - the air launched version, the extended range version etc. We also have the 1000 Km range Nirbhay cruise missile. I wonder what became of India's proposal to purchase strategic bombers...

These don't pose a highly credible conventional threat (yet) to China's population centers.

And I find myself wondering why our submarines don't have a conventional cruise missile launch capability. Every missile with the Navy is ballistic, not conventional.

But does conventional deterrence have to threaten the adversary's population centers? Can't they just be tactical (i.e., at the battlefield level) in order to deter?

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by locusjag

And I find myself wondering why our submarines don't have a conventional cruise missile launch capability. Every missile with the Navy is ballistic, not conventional.

All anti-ship cruise missiles can be used to attack land targets too. Eg: Brahmos (Oniks). Indian submarines of Russian origin use Kalibr cruise missiles for both anti-ship and land-attack role.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Kalibr

Kalibr is being extensively used by Russia against Ukraine's energy infrastructure.

But does conventional deterrence have to threaten the adversary's population centers? Can't they just be tactical (i.e., at the battlefield level) in order to deter?

Military casualties can be easily hidden. And that can help win the "information war" or "perception war". If you have noticed, nobody died when India attacked Pakistan in 2016/2019 according to them. And apparently, super-human Chinese inflicted 5x number of deaths on India side. In Russia/Ukraine theater, both parties are hiding casualties.

But attacks on population/commercial/industrial centers cannot be hidden (Eg: Russian attack on Ukrainian energy infrastructure). By the way, attack on a population center does not mean attack on a stadium full of spectators. It means attacks on legitimate large military targets near or inside major cities.

[V.Narayan]

Nag family of anti-tank guided missiles


What better way to start the new year than by posting on one of India’s success stories in the guided missile arena. The Nag anti-tank guided missile {ATGM} is another indigenous success story amongst our tactical missiles and probably the best after Brahmos.



The Nag missile is a Indian third-generation, all-weather, fire-and-forget, lock-on after launch, top-attack, anti-tank guided missile with an operational range of 500 metres to 7000 metres km with the potential of being developed in future versions to 20,000 metres. It is said to possess a single-shot hit probability of 90% {77% according to some journals} and a ten-year, maintenance-free shelf life. Even if the hit probability is 75% in real life it is very good. The Nag has the following variants under development/ service:

• A land version to be deployed on vehicles;
• The helicopter-launched Nag (HELINA) also known as Dhruvastra;
• A "man-portable" version;
• A long range version

Guidance System: The guidance system is based on an imaging infrared (IIR) seeker working together with a low-light TV camera that together ensure a high target accuracy in both top and front attack modes. If desired at the last moments off light the Nag rises upwards suddenly and then bends down at a steep angle to aim for the target from atop hitting the top of the armoured vehicle usually having the thinnest armour. A real-time image processor located next to the guidance package helps enable automatic target detection and tracking capability.


The digital autopilot helps in the guidance, stability, and control after launch.The land launched version has lock-on before launch guidance while the air-launched version can be deployed in lock-on after launch mode. This facility gives the helicopter version a greater range to match the helicopter's longer search & acquisition radius. The infra-red passive seeker guidance makes it resistant to jamming.

Warhead: The warhead is an 8 kgs tandem charge {i.e. two-stage} HEAT* shaped charge warhead that can deal with ERA {explosive reactive armour}** and composite armour upto and over the equivalent of 900mm of RHA {Rolled Homogenous Armour}***.

Propulsion: The propulsion is via a smokeless rocket motor that propels the missile to 230 metres/second. The rocket motor has a boost unit and a cruise unit.




NAMICA Version: In service is the NAMICA (Nag Missile Carrier) which is a modified Sarath {stretched, license-built BMP-2} classified as a tank destroyer. It is equipped with various electro-optical systems including a thermal imager and a laser rangefinder for target acquisition. The NAMICA carries a total of twelve Nag missiles, with eight in ready-to-fire mode and four in storage. NAMICA can fire missiles at a target located around 7 kilometres with hunter-killer sight capability



HELINA (Helicopter-launched Nag) is air-launched version of the Nag with extended range. It is launched from twin-tube stub wing-mounted launchers on board Rudra & Prachand helicopters. This version can be slewed to a different target mid-flight. It can also be launched in the general direction of a group of targets the operator can view what the missiles ‘sees’ via a command-video data link and select the target of choice.



The Man Portable ATGM variant is a lower weight version for use by troops on the ground or from light vehicles such as jeeps.

The Nag is now in service in the NAMICA and HELINA versions and the man portable variant has been said to have completed its tests. The Nag is verily the equivalent of the American Javelin made famous in the Ukraine War and the Israeli Spike missiles. It is a proud reflection of what our missile fraternity is now capable of developing and putting into service.


*A HEAT warhead fires a molten jet into the armoured side thus cracking open the armour. The molten jet once inside plays its own havoc. As it does not rely on kinetic energy it can be a relatively low recoil system.
** ERA are bricks placed on the skin of a tank that explode outward instantly on being hit be a shell or any other warhead. Thus they deflect/throwback the incoming projectile.
*** RHA is the equivalent of rolled steel armour that the warhead can penetrate. As tanks these days carry several layers of different armours {spaced, steel, composite, reactive} an equivalent RHA fugure is calculated to help make comparisons.

[BigB]

[quote=V.Narayan;5466755]Nag family of anti-tank guided missiles


Sir, Nag is the most “tortured” of the missiles that are under development since IGMDP was started in the early 80s. It has been in endless loop of testing by our forces ever since. The number of tests that have been carried out is simply mind boggling. From what I am aware of, no “firm” orders have been placed except a token “initial order”.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by BigB

Nag family of anti-tank guided missiles

Sir, Nag is the most “tortured” of the missiles that are under development since IGMDP was started in the early 80s. It has been in endless loop of testing by our forces ever since. The number of tests that have been carried out is simply mind boggling. From what I am aware of, no “firm” orders have been placed except a token “initial order”.

Thank you for your inputs. You are right that the development process has been long and challenging with more than its fair share of obstacles. That in itself is not surprising given that - (a) this is a fire and forget weapon with both a lock on before fire and lock on after fire ability; (b) has the ability to switch targets mid-flight; and (c) being an anti-tank guided weapon it has to fly close to the ground which is a storm of electromagnetic frequencies to hinder acquisition & guidance. The frequency storm 20 feet above ground is multiple times greater than at 20,000 feet in case of say an air-to-air missile.

There is nothing wrong in a device as complex as a guided missile undergoing repeated tests. Even missiles developed by France-UK-USA-China undergo repeated testing and sometimes even then they do not turn out right. I don't see repeated testing as a liability. As our first ATGW it is only to be expected that we'd be on a steep learning curve. The important matter is that we stuck to our efforts and came out right. Though I admit it has been coming a long time and its gestation can only be compared to Tejas LCA.

To best of my knowledge the Nag in its helicopter form has entered service with Rudra & Prachand helicopters and in its vehicle mounted version {NAMICA} entered service a few years ago.

For the benefit of our readers - the complexity of a guided missile is not determined by size or range alone though those are important considerations. The complexity of the "guided" part of the story is determined by how crowded a frequency environment does that device have to fly through, how many counter-measures it will face, how close to the ground or sea surface does it fly and what aerodynamic disturbances it will encounter from such proximity and how much of surface clutter will its guidance system cope with. In this respect at least where guidance systems go anti-tank missiles are amongst the most complex which is why even today 60+ years after the first fire and forget missiles in other spheres {Sidewinder heat seeking air-to-air missile and the Russian Styx radar guided anti-ship missile} anti-tank missiles largely remain SACLOS {wire guided Semi-Automatic Command to Line of Sight} ie in plain words operator wire guided. It is only now two generations later that fire and forget mode has caught up with the anti-tank missile world {e.g. Israeli Spike or American Javelin}.

I had actually written this post over 18 months ago but waited till Nag entered service in its helicopter form to post it here on Team BHP. I appreciate your words of caution. On this thread I prefer to be careful not to get into any jingoistic and self congratulatory propaganda or claims.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for your inputs. You are right that the development process has been long and challenging with more than its fair share of obstacles. That in itself is not surprising given that - (a) this is a fire and forget weapon with both a lock on before fire and lock on after fire ability; (b) has the ability to switch targets mid-flight; and (c) being an anti-tank guided weapon it has to fly close to the ground which is a storm of electromagnetic frequencies to hinder acquisition & guidance. The frequency storm 20 feet above ground is multiple times greater than at 20,000 feet in case of say an air-to-air missile.

If the guidance system is a combination of IR and visual imaging why would electromagnetic frequency have such an impact on acquisition and guidance?

Thanks

Jeroen

[saikarthik]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Guidance System: The guidance system is based on an imaging infrared (IIR) seeker working together with a low-light TV camera that together ensure a high target accuracy in both top and front attack modes.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

If the guidance system is a combination of IR and visual imaging why would electromagnetic frequency have such an impact on acquisition and guidance?

I have the same doubt as Mr.Jeroen, and Narayan sir, were you referring to the electromagnetic frequencies in IR spectrum?

There are some interesting technologies that are being developed like the "cloak of infrared invisibility", by BAE systems and one Indian start up(which I don't recollect, could be HyperStealth Technologies). While the BAE's solution called 'Adaptive' is made up of a set of active tiles mounted on tank's exterior. These tiles can be programmed and controlled by anti-IR detection computers and in theory can make the tank blend in the surroundings heat signature or can make a pattern to look like a car or civilian vehicle to fool the enemy. Not sure on their overall effectiveness as the technology is still in development. Will be interesting if the combinate seeker of the Nag can beat such systems in future if they are deployed.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

If the guidance system is a combination of IR and visual imaging why would electromagnetic frequency have such an impact on acquisition and guidance?

Thanks

Jeroen

Considering that IR/Visual Imaging are still part of the EM Spectrum, I fail to understand why electromagnetic frequency would not have any impact on acquisition and guidance. There is alot of ground level clutter that any IIR seeker would have to work through to get an optimum guidance solution. In summer time in the Thar desert, ground temperatures cross 60°C. Not a single foreign ATGM has been able to pass the Indian Army's requirements as of date. Not the Spike not the Javelin nor anything else.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

Considering that IR/Visual Imaging are still part of the EM Spectrum, I fail to understand why electromagnetic frequency would not have any impact on acquisition and guidance. There is alot of ground level clutter that any IIR seeker would have to work through to get an optimum guidance solution. In summer time in the Thar desert, ground temperatures cross 60°C. Not a single foreign ATGM has been able to pass the Indian Army's requirements as of date. Not the Spike not the Javelin nor anything else.

Effectiveness of IR is all about how much heat signature there is compared to other light sources, in practice mainly the sun. To the best of my knowledge normal electronic clutter in the atmosphere does not interfere with IR.

The reason those missiles are having trouble engaging on hot dessert grounds is not because of electronic clutter/interference but because of IR sensors having problems detecting different temperature ranges (I.e. object versus surroundings) or influence from direct sun light.

Visual sensors work just like your eye. I don’t see how normal electronic clutter would interfere.

Jeroen

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

If the guidance system is a combination of IR and visual imaging why would electromagnetic frequency have such an impact on acquisition and guidance?

Originally Posted by saikarthik

I have the same doubt as Mr.Jeroen, and Narayan sir, were you referring to the electromagnetic frequencies in IR spectrum?

To the best of my knowledge {which understandably is far from perfect} and what I have read and heard any passive guidance system - in this case a visual or IR guidance head on an ATGM - is prone to distractions both natural and countermeasures. Natural can be hot sand storm, hot air rising from the desert surface, another object getting into the flight & sight path in the 10 to 20 seconds it takes the missile to reach the target {let's assume a tank}. And then there are counter measures such as chaff {in this case IR or visual}. Bear in mind the missile in this case is not being guided by a wire in a SACLOS mode by a human operator.

Originally Posted by sierrabravo98

Considering that IR/Visual Imaging are still part of the EM Spectrum, I fail to understand why electromagnetic frequency would not have any impact on acquisition and guidance. There is alot of ground level clutter that any IIR seeker would have to work through to get an optimum guidance solution. In summer time in the Thar desert, ground temperatures cross 60°C. Not a single foreign ATGM has been able to pass the Indian Army's requirements as of date. Not the Spike not the Javelin nor anything else.

Thank you SB98