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Old 31st December 2018, 14:00   #76
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

^^^
Thank you for reading the thread. I have used ISRO for simplicity as it is recognized by all and it was in response to a post that referred to ISRO. DRDO and ISRO all work very closely together on missile programmes. You are right that Agni comes under DRDO.

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Old 6th January 2019, 05:29   #77
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

V.Narayan sir, as always I enjoy your military threads, thank you very much for writing them. Rather than commenting on them, they usually send my down the wikipedia rabbit hole for hours on end!

I have a question.

What sort of capabilities do we have regarding precision bombing? Considering that that will probably the opening salvo in neutralizing enemy territory. Since we do not have any strategic bombers or stealth bombers, how capable are our bombs?

Also does India have any sort of Wild Weasel-esque radar busting capabilities ala USAF in Vietnam?

Thank you very much.
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Old 6th January 2019, 14:48   #78
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What sort of capabilities do we have regarding precision bombing?
I don't think we have satellite guided bombs like JDAMs. However, we have laser guided bombs that was first used during Kargil War. That too, it was hurriedly acquired from Israel during the war. IAF's Mirage 2000 would not have aced its mission without the help of laser guided bombs. For this to work, aircraft needs to be equipped with 'targeting pod' that looks like this:

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IAF's favorite targeting pod is LITENING (made by Israeli company).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litening

Once the target is marked, you drop a laser-guided bomb on to the target. We no longer need to import LGBs - we now have that capability to develop and manufacture such smart bombs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudars...er-guided_bomb

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Also does India have any sort of Wild Weasel-esque radar busting capabilities ala USAF in Vietnam?
I think we use Russian Kh series anti-radiation missiles. DRDO's missile is still under development
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_A...iation_Missile

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Old 26th January 2019, 12:30   #79
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

Weapon Systems displayed on today’s Republic Day Parade

The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6-akash1s-armyspecific-motorised-tel.jpgPhoto Source: Rediff.com
Akash Surface to air Missile. Covered earlier in the thread but briefly it is a 30-km range anti-aircraft area defense missile with equal ability to shoot down incoming cruise missiles and slow moving helicopters. Developed indigenously by DRDO.

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Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile for the Indian Army. This is a Israel-India joint development called MRSAM by the Indian Army and Barak 8 by Israel. It is a70 kms medium range missile designed to shoot down fast aircraft, slow helicopters, cruise missiles and to an extent incoming ballistic missiles.

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K-9 152mm Self Propelled Howitzer. At long last after 3 decades lost over the Bofors imbroglio the Indian Army gets a modern 152mm gun this time in the self-propelled version. A product of South Korea. We are only acquiring 100!! If we had continued with Bofors we would have been making our own self-propelled version by now. 30 years lost.

The vehicle with the gun mounting weighs 47 tonnes. It is powered by a 1000 shp MTU 8-cylinder diesel that moves it at a top road speed of 67 kmph. Range ~480 kms. The 152mm gun has a normal range of 30,000 metres. With base-bleed shell the range can be extended to 38,000 metres but with some loss of accuracy. The resistance faced by a cannon shell is from the air as its nose cuts through it and by the vacuum created at its base which the air at the rear rushes to fill in. A base bleed shell release gases at its base to reduce this vaccum thus dramatically increasing range.
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Old 28th January 2019, 14:20   #80
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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
K-9 152mm Self Propelled Howitzer.
Interesting acquisitions, though not very news making like the flying stuffs. I was bit confused when I saw them in parade, looks similar to tanks or rather old BMPs. How these are different?
Also, interesting to see L&T badging instead of BHEL / DRDO.

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The vehicle with the gun mounting weighs 47 tonnes. It is powered by a 1000 shp MTU 8-cylinder diesel that moves it at a top road speed of 67 kmph. Range ~480 kms.
480 KM range is huge, must be having a giant kind of fuel tank.
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Old 28th January 2019, 15:54   #81
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Weapon Systems displayed on today’s Republic Day Parade

Rediff.com
K-9 152mm Self Propelled Howitzer. At long last after 3 decades lost over the Bofors imbroglio the Indian Army gets a modern 152mm gun this time in the self-propelled version.

The 152mm gun has a normal range of 30,000 metres. With base-bleed shell the range c.
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I was bit confused when I saw them in parade, looks similar to tanks or 480 KM range is huge, must be having a giant kind of fuel tank.

It seems Rediff got it wrong when reporting the calibre of the artillery gun. It is 155mm, 52 calibre. In modern times, I remember only Russians use 152mm Self propelled guns (SPG). Koalitsiya and Msta are both 152mm.

PetrolRider, SPGs became more and more important as armies across world recognized the importance of German Blitzkrieg war method from WW-2. In this approach a condensed mass of armour and motorized infantry tried to break the enemy defense by short, fast and concentrated attack. So far lack of SPG was a big impediment for our strike cores on western border who are supposed to launch similar Blitzkrieg type attacks named Cold start. The towed artillery always takes time to install and then operate. And strike core relies on speed and surprise to defeat enemy. Also, if you want to run out post firing, to avoid enemy counter battery fire, again SPG with their own mechanism to drive/propulsion, are faster than towed artillery.

Besides Blitzkreig, in modern warfare we have very capable artillery locating radars. Once your artillery has completed its task and you know your position has been identified by enemy, it is very important to leave that area before they open their fire. And here as well, Pakistan acquired very advance radars from US way before we got our own. This was one of the reason for selection of Bofors gun in 80s by India as it also has an auxiliary power unit to drive it to some distance and save it from counter fire.

These are two important areas where a tracked (or wheeled) artillery comes very handy and can support the attacks. They also automate many of the tasks that are required to operate a artillery gun and in a way saving manpower. They also provide some protection from small arm fires as most of the operators are inside the body of the system.

Our adversary procured these SPGs (M 109 & M 110) way back from US. Our army has been asking for these systems for quite long time. Infact DRDO developed a system named Bhim with help from South African Denel. But Denel got blacklisted because of some corrupt practices and the whole project got shelved. Bhim was based on Arjun chasis merged with famous G6 turret of Denel.

Even DRDOs very own CVRDE developed another SPG based on Russian M 46 gun and Vijyanta chasis in late 80s. But we never produced them in mass.

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Old 28th January 2019, 21:02   #82
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

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Originally Posted by PetrolRider View Post
I was bit confused when I saw them in parade, looks similar to tanks or rather old BMPs.
Same here. I went for the parade hoping to see a lot of hardware but it was rather subdued this year with T-90, Sarath BMP, the K9 Vajra and then the SAM Akash & MRSAM. Kaput.
Quote:
480 KM range is huge, must be having a giant kind of fuel tank.
I am no expert here but from what I read 400 kms to 600 kms is the normal range for these large tanks/ self-propelled guns. The real range we will never know.
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Originally Posted by vikasshu View Post
It seems Rediff got it wrong when reporting the calibre of the artillery gun. It is 155mm, 52 calibre.[/url] In modern times, I remember only Russians use 152mm Self propelled guns (SPG). Koalitsiya and Msta are both 152mm.
Mistake was mine. 155mm is correct.

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In fact DRDO developed a system named Bhim with help from South African Denel. But Denel got blacklisted because of some corrupt practices and the whole project got shelved. Bhim was based on Arjun chasis merged with famous G6 turret of Denel. Even DRDOs very own CVRDE developed another SPG based on Russian M 46 gun and Vijyanta chasis in late 80s. But we never produced them in mass.
Do you know why we didn't go ahead with the Russian mating. Black listing firms does harm ultimately only to us. For every corruption charge needs two hands to clap.
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Old 30th March 2019, 19:19   #83
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Default re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

ASAT - Anti-Satellite Missile Test

As all T-BHP readers know by now India has become the fourth nation, after USA, China and Russia, to attain the capability to intercept a satellite in orbit after its successful Anti-Satellite (ASAT) missile test on 27th March 2019. What makes this accomplishment noteworthy is that it has been developed indigenously. This sort of thing no body but no body wants to help you with. You have to go it alone.

Why is the ASAT missile test or Mission Shakti important for India?

This step is important first because it is rare strategic asset for us and also, unlike Pokhran I and II it has happened before any international agreement has been forged. After Pokhran II ASAT is the most important geo-political strategic positioning event by India. Because it is not a nuclear device most people have not grasped its relevance.

With this test India has pre-empted a possible treaty on space weaponization, much like the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT), which would have stopped India from demonstrating its ASAT ability in the future and giving the United States, China, and Russia sole ASAT-weapons-state status.

When the Pokhran-II nuclear tests were carried out, in 1998, India faced intense criticism since the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) of 1968 was already in place which created two groups of countries where nuclear weapons are concerned – the 5 powers who got in before 1968 {USA, USSR, UK, France, China} had special rights versus all others. The ‘all others’ effectively signed up to eschew the ownership of nuclear weapons forever in return for the use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. This part has been vigorously implemented. Another tenet of the NPT ie gradual nuclear disarmament has been completely ignored by the 5 original powers. These strategic treaties are designed for the 'haves'. India did not sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

So, the timing is just right because if any document is drawn on outer space now, it would have to recognize countries that already have the capability.

Based on what I have read in 1964 Homi Bhabha had suggested to the Govt of India that we detonate an experimental A-bomb like the Chinese had done that year. He felt we could pull together enough uranium for a small experimental device and announce our arrival. The Govt (I do not recall if it was Nehru or Shastri) turned down the request – we had just lost to the Chinese in 1962, we were dealing with famines and our economy was under a lot of pressure and hence we feared getting kicked in the teeth. At that time we also did not understand real politik and had woolly ideas of preaching to others. It took another 10 years and Indira Gandhi for us to show we mean business.

How would ASAT be used in war?

ASAT is essentially a guided rocket that can destroy or jam an enemy country's satellite in space.

During the time of war, ASATs can be used to destroy or jam communication, reconnaissance or other military satellites of enemy countries and stop them from communicating with their soldiers & ships. It can also be used to access critical information about troop movements or incoming missiles. Since most of the communication networks and reconnaissance needs are satellite-based, this can have a disastrous impact on the country whose satellite gets targeted. This also sends a message to China and Pakistan who unfortunately only appreciate a message of the big stick. US first tested the ASAT technology in 1958, followed by USSR in 1964 and China in 2007. None have used it in a conflict yet.

How does ASAT work.

The method we used was to navigate the intercepting rocket to the target satellite and crash into it. Here the rocket is used like a cannon shell. China and India, as far as is known, have only used this method so far. USA and Russia can also use a beam of laser energy to blind a satellite – this requires significant onboard power generation capability in the interceptor. A third method is an explosion in proximity of the target with thousands of pellets flying out at supersonic speeds some or more of which will hit the target satellite.

Navigating in space poses complications much beyond navigating on earth. First is that you are operating in 3 dimensions as is your target and second there is no natural fixed reference point. Any reference point of earth is also zooming away or towards you at ~1600 kmph. Further a satellite is like a grain of dust in the vastness of space and your guided rocket must find it - and not mistakenly bump off somebody else's satellite. This is where the trick is.

USA and Russia have ASAT missiles that can be launched from ships, aircrafts or land based launchers. ASAT devices as of now are focused on low earth orbit satellites which typically are the military sharp reconnaissance ones. Satellites beyond a 20,000 kms orbit are normally out of range.

What India has demonstrated are the first steps. Our capability is no where near that of USA or Russia nor does it need to be. It is a weapon of deterrence. With a weapon of deterrence a little bit of deterrence is a whole lot better than nothing; while a lot is not much better than a little.

Jai Hind.

Photo Source - Press Information Bureau, GoI

The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6-d2q_bucu0ae1ug0.jpg

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Old 1st April 2019, 11:50   #84
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Default Re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

Days after Mission Shakti, India launches satellite that locates and identifies enemy radars
Quote:
Space agency ISRO, today, launched the electronic intelligence satellite EMISAT along with 28 nano satellites of global customers from Sriharikota today. With this, India seeks to give birth to a new surveillance satellite that will track and identify enemy radars over the length and breadth of enemy territory.

Today's launch comes six days after India test-fired an anti-satellite (ASAT) missile in the Mission Shakti operation. "I am very happy with achieving a double bullseye in space, first with Mission Shakti a direct hit to kill of a satellite at 300 kilometre altitude and now, with the help of ISRO, India's EMISAT successfully placed in orbit," Dr G Satheesh Reddy, chief of DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation), told NDTV.

For the first time, Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) invited common people to view the launch.

This low-Earth orbit satellite that weighs 436 kg, sources say, will monitor and give locations for enemy radar sites deep in their territory. Till now, India used airplanes as early warning platforms where the surveillance range is limited by the aircraft's altitude and endurance. This satellite will give a space-based platform to sniff out enemy radars.

The PSLV launched today passed through a belt of some 300 pieces of debris left behind by last week's anti-satellite (ASAT) missile launch.

EMISAT is aimed at measuring the electromagnetic spectrum, at around 17 minutes from lift off in a 749 km orbit, they would restart the fourth stage again.

The launch also carries 28 small satellites of the US, Switzerland, Lithuania and Spain. These include 20 Flock-4A satellites and 4 Lemur satellites of the same variety that gave the controversial images that questioned the efficacy of the Balakot air strikes by the Air Force.
Video Link:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/68664357.cms

Photos from Press Information Bureau

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Old 1st April 2019, 13:45   #85
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Default Re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
ASAT - Anti-Satellite Missile Test
... thousands of pellets flying out at supersonic speeds some...
I know I am nitpicking but supersonic speeds in space? I would rather prefer to use the electromagnetic jamming than sending out pellets and in due coarse them hitting one of our own satellites.

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Navigating in space poses complications much beyond navigating on earth. First is that you are operating in 3 dimensions as is your target and second there is no natural fixed reference point. Any reference point of earth is also zooming away or towards you at ~1600 kmph. Further a satellite is like a grain of dust in the vastness of space and your guided rocket must find it - and not mistakenly bump off somebody else's satellite. This is where the trick is.
Not really! Every space faring nation maintains a catalogue of objects in space. This is usually used for collision avoidance (debries mitigation) of own launches or spacecrafts. Objects that are closer to 10 cm or smaller are the ones that are hard to detect. This would mean we cannot or rather should not use pellets to shoot down other satellites.

Otherwise, a bit of maths and physics and a good radar is what is needed to know the precise location of any spacecraft at any given point of time. Again, rocket science is not that hard as perceived.

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Satellites beyond a 20,000 kms orbit are normally out of range.
Not really. It will take time but not out of range. With some boost manouvres and a powerful rocket, doable in under 48hrs. Usually no sane country will attempt it because the debri caused as a result will never leave the orbit and will cause significant handicap for future satellites.

There are talks of space based laser/high energy weapons systems but imho I see this as a positive step as we have time and again proved our capabilities in Guidance, Navigation and Control (GNC). This will help in future orbit debri clearing missions as, the target will be a noncooperative one and a rendezvous with such a target plus docking (assuming this technology will be used to remove garbage) will be the most complex technology to master. We have just proven the first step towards this goal that we can rendezvous with any flying object in the outer space.
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Old 1st April 2019, 21:10   #86
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Default Re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

^^^
Some time back there was a lot of buzz about ISRO launching a horde of microsatellites in one launch. The microsatellites were from a single American company. What is not well known is that the US administration denied permission for them to launch these, and when these were launched, the US company was fined. Reason - the microsatellites were too small to be tracked by radar, and would likely become uncharted space debris.

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Old 2nd April 2019, 11:58   #87
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^^^
...Reason...

Regards
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Dada, that was how it was marketed for the rest of the world. They actually were forced by their own launch providers to stop giving money to other countries and promote local (spaceX, boeing, ULA...) launchers. PSLV is now starting take over a significant portion of launch activities for westerners.

Their main concern is the lack of reliable alternatives. The russian launchers are too unreliable, chinese cannot be trusted and the Europeans are too costly and finally the local products are still not upto the task with deadlines. ISRO on the other hand, delivers a very high quality product with extremely high reliability (99.99%) and a timely, precise launch.

Our orbit injections are in "metre" accuracy and can go upto "cm" accuracies which are unheard of, even for sophisticated western launchers.

I don't know about the DRDO and co. but ISRO for one commands a huge respect among every other space agency world wide. Whoever is shedding crocodile tears about how bad India is and so on are doing it for pitty penance and short term popularity but the general science community understands the significance of "Mission Shakti" and are asking questions to themselves as to why there was no hue and cry when USA or Russia did the same. Why do they always shout when India or China for that matter do something like this?

Now that we have seen "Mission Shakti", I can't wait to hear about "Mission KALI" soon! Hope it happens soon.

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Old 2nd April 2019, 21:02   #88
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Default Re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

^^^
Somehow I don't think we are talking of the same thing.

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Old 2nd April 2019, 21:03   #89
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Default Re: The Missiles of India. EDIT: A-SAT update on page 6

Just like how Anti-Ballistic Missile shields spawned the introduction of Multiple Independently target-able Reentry Vehicle (MIRV) missiles, will A-SAT spawn a new generation of satellites that can dodge incoming A-SATs?

This could be relatively easy to achieve given the sensors on board a satellite and the availability of thrusters for propulsion? Or has this already been implemented?
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Old 2nd April 2019, 22:36   #90
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Just like how Anti-Ballistic Missile shields spawned the introduction of Multiple Independently target-able Reentry Vehicle (MIRV) missiles, will A-SAT spawn a new generation of satellites that can dodge incoming A-SATs?

This could be relatively easy to achieve given the sensors on board a satellite and the availability of thrusters for propulsion? Or has this already been implemented?
In principle you're correct. Surely it's easy for a satellite to evade an incoming kinetic kill vehicle (let's just preclude the mind boggling complexity of that in and of itself). The problem you face is fuel. Most satellites only have a limited amount of fuel on board for maneuvering in space as you want to make as much of your payload of utility as possible given that most rates AFAIK are based on weight. Fuel is essentially dead weight.

Now I would imagine that the kind of satellites that are of national security importance to a nation will ultimately start to have some leeway built in from now on, especially if A-SAT weapons become ever more common. Also most satellites tend to follow pretty well mapped trajectories. The minute anyone notices a particular satellite moving erratically you're going to raise eyebrows and draw attention.

Personally I have reservations in terms of the debris clusters these would leave behind (it's why I'm a tad bit uneasy about weaponising space but I fully understand that it will happen). Pretty sure when the Soviets lugged a canon onto one of their satellites in the first rudimentary ASAT test, the debris must've lit up like a chaff cloud in space on NORAD screens. I'll try and find where I think I read that from.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...es-near-moscow
Quote:
Anti-satellite weaponry is a different story, as the U.S. seems to have moved its focus from direct-ascent kinetic kill concepts to less invasive ones that do not risk turning large stretches of low-earth orbit into a cloud of super-destructive debris, among many other advantages as well. These concepts include putting satellites into orbit that can jam, blind, disable, or even kill enemy satellites. You can read all about them here. By all indications, Russia is also working on similar concepts and likely has experimental capabilities along these lines already orbit.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...nd-space-looms
Quote:
Anti-ballistic missile systems are a natural fit for plinking satellites. The US Navy used its SM-3 interceptor and Aegis combat system to do just that back in 2008 under Operation Burnt Frost, swatting a malfunctioning surveillance satellite out of the sky successfully.
ASAT technology is definitely going to start coming out of the shadows now. In fact many believe the secretive Boeing X-37B spaceplane (looks like a mini space shuttle) is a highly advanced piece of kit designed to play around with satellites.
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