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Old 5th February 2019, 23:23   #31
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

It's a sad day when govt agencies work at cross purposes. Even if HAL is at fault for this accident and other lapses such as delays in delivery of aircraft, the sane voices should question the government in power. How can they absolve themselves of the accountability for letting the rot go so deep?

Also the larger question of who is the ultimate beneficiary when the air force and HAL keep bickering at each other needs to be answered.

Wish the souls of the 2 departed pilots rests in peace irrespective of whether it was a mechanical fault or pilot error. God bless.
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Old 5th February 2019, 23:32   #32
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I read somewhere it was undercarriage failure. Shame on HAL.

I am glad Dassault gave the the cold shoulder. Test Pilots are the best of the best. Losing two is unacceptable.

Should the HAL and the like not be wound up! Privatize defence industry!
This is the problem, reading somewhere, written by someone who was informed somehow! With all due respect to you sir, I, in your shoes wouldn't just shoot something like this. Not atleast when I have spent close to 32 years growing up within the huge HAL family.

Pity how a iconic Indian public sector is being played out midst dirty politics and how people are just lapping it up! shame on us.
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Old 6th February 2019, 07:50   #33
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

Gentlemen, in full support of what @vinair has written we need to put a stop to speculation of the how and why of this tragic crash and stop trying to pin the blame on X or Y. As all folks from the aviation fraternity know a crash can happen for a thousand reasons and as arm chair experts right now we know next to nothing. Journalists write, some times, without proper facts because of weak accountability and rarely do they have any technical knowledge of consequence.
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Old 6th February 2019, 08:05   #34
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Journalists write, some times, without proper facts because of weak accountability and rarely do they have any technical knowledge of consequence.
Very much agree with this. During last Aero Show, a guy who introduced himself as covering for a national level English paper told me that tanks on underwing pylons were bombs.
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Old 6th February 2019, 11:01   #35
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

Totally agree with the point that we should wait for the official accident report to find out what actually happened.

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Originally Posted by AJITHAAA View Post
The HAL test pilot is not a politician or an arm chair general just to defend HAL blindly. He risks his life and flies these machines, puts them through every possible test before handing them over to IAF.
But, I still don't agree with the comments from the HAL test pilot. There are some facts - Nobody climbs into the cockpit thinking that the worst will happen, unless one is on a suicide mission. There is a certain level of risk when somebody flies an aircraft, more so, when the number of unknowns are high. Telling something like "I flew that aircraft last time and so, it does not have any problem" is plain wrong. Below are a few examples from civil aviation, where the aircraft crashed due to a problem with the machine. All these aircraft were flying perfectly without giving any hint of issues till the last flight. So, could the pilots flying the last leg, before the accident argue that the plane was perfectly alright? No! They could only tell that when they flew it, it was OK and did/could not identify that there was a hidden issue. The HAL pilot also would have said the same.


China Airlines Flight 611 -

Boeing 737 Rudder issues -

American Airlines Flight 96/Turkish Airlines Flight 981 -

Japan Airlines Flight 123 -
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Old 6th February 2019, 14:38   #36
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
... Telling something like "I flew that aircraft last time and so, it does not have any problem" is plain wrong. Below are a few examples from civil aviation,...-
Add the Jakarta Air asia Boein 737NG to the list! Sad to see lifes lost. The pilots were in the early 30's and had a long career in the Uniform ahead of them.

All We wish for is the fact that real cause for the accident is unearthed and resolved. All this blame gaming will help no one.
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Old 6th February 2019, 21:41   #37
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

Having spent close to two and half decades interacting with HAL on behalf of IAF and knowing ASTE closely, I can firmly say that IAF will get to the bottom of this accident. Having been part of some Courts of Inquiry, I can also assure that these inquiries are conducted in most professional manner without any fear and favours, no commercial or any other factors matter in these inquiries except to get to the bottom of the truth and all angles technical or human are thoroughly investigated. There have been number of instances when very senior officers have had to pay for the lapses or supervisory oversight if blamed in CoI, these instances may not be in public domain but IAF does very deep investigations in every accident, after all nothing matters more than lives of brothers in arms.

ASTE and HAL have a very close working and professional relationship, to say HAL is not bothered is being ignorant of the this fact. I also vouch for the support provided by HAL and its engineers and technicians during Op Parakaram and Kargil war. As a youngster even I used to laugh at the efficiency of HAL, what took us three days to accomplish on the second line servicing, HAL would take fourteen. But there thoroughness and quality of work was unmatchable by us. So I developed a grudging respect for their work though I still say 14 days were just too much for what we did in three. I would like to inform that for every activity on the aircraft there are two to five overseers/ supervisors, and some are independent supervisors not HAL employees. Clearance for air test is also at some level accorded by these independent inspectors after HAL certifies all ok.

HAL is just as efficient as any other Govt service, but I would say that is a typical Indian trait. Colonial legacy has a huge hangover in the Govt, once you enter it everybody wants to rise up quickly to become an accountant. All that senior echelons do is control public funds and wield power through its management, they just stop getting fresh ideas. Nobody wants to remain a core professional and delve deep into his subject, bug of careerism catches, as perks are accordingly arranged in the service.You just don't see a professional being paid more than his administrator, who normally is a generalist or another domain specialist. (This is my personal reading, so anyone having another opinion is perfectly ok with me)

There is no such thing as an old aircraft in the IAF, an aircraft is either airworthy or not. There are no air frames cracking up in mid air or engines blowing up after having lived their useful life. Yes they may be old from the point of view of their capability to fight a modern war, they may not have radar to look too far or ordinance to match but no aircraft is ever flown which is not airworthy.

Lastly, just answering a small query that was mentioned somewhere down in the discussion, ejection seats can fire or get thrown out of the cockpit on impact as well, in such a circumstances the drogues may also get deployed and main parachute may or may not deploy, separation of the pilot from seat also may or may not take place depending on circumstances.

Would recommend an article written by Cdr KP Sanjeev Kumar for all interested.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019...0-tragedy.html
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Old 6th February 2019, 21:44   #38
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
Totally agree with the point that we should wait for the official accident report to find out what actually happened.


But, I still don't agree with the comments from the HAL test pilot. There are some facts - Nobody climbs into the cockpit thinking that the worst will happen, unless one is on a suicide mission. There is a certain level of risk when somebody flies an aircraft, more so, when the number of unknowns are high. Telling something like "I flew that aircraft last time and so, it does not have any problem" is plain wrong. Below are a few examples from civil aviation, where the aircraft crashed due to a problem with the machine. All these aircraft were flying perfectly without giving any hint of issues till the last flight. So, could the pilots flying the last leg, before the accident argue that the plane was perfectly alright? No! They could only tell that when they flew it, it was OK and did/could not identify that there was a hidden issue. The HAL pilot also would have said the same.


China Airlines Flight 611 -

Boeing 737 Rudder issues -

American Airlines Flight 96/Turkish Airlines Flight 981 -

Japan Airlines Flight 123 -
So how is it justified when every body is vying for HAL's blood even before the entire truth is out. Since he is from that organization, he is duty bound to do so and all he has done is stated facts. Comments here are as if every other day an HAL serviced plane is crashing. After all this hoopla imagine if HAL is absolved of any wrong doing, what then.
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Old 6th February 2019, 22:34   #39
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

I guess people baying for HALs blood is based on the new development that they were supposed to do and couldn't do for decades. Its what has come out HAL which makes us form the opinion that we do. Compare that with what opinion one has about ISRO!

I started my career with ITI. The employees whine about management and management whines about people in government.
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Old 6th February 2019, 22:47   #40
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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I guess people baying for HALs blood is based on the new development that they were supposed to do and couldn't do for decades. Its what has come out HAL which makes us form the opinion that we do. Compare that with what opinion one has about ISRO!

I started my career with ITI. The employees whine about management and management whines about people in government.
And why HAL now sir?? How many jets have we lost in the last few decades and in how many cases have we heard the name ‘HAL’ cropping up??

Forget about ISRO, imagine living in peace with the fact that the next gen fighter aircraft is going to be manufactured by a company that has just filed for bankruptcy
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Old 6th February 2019, 22:56   #41
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by vinair View Post
And why HAL now sir?? How many jets have we lost in the last few decades and in how many cases have we heard the name ‘HAL’ cropping up??

Forget about ISRO, imagine living in peace with the fact that the next gen fighter aircraft is going to be manufactured by a company that has just filed for bankruptcy
Just a honest question, Isnt HAL responsible for upkeep for all fighter aircraft ?

The reason for HAL being sullied now in this way is definitely linked with next gen aircraft and all the drama surrounding that :(
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Old 6th February 2019, 23:11   #42
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Just a honest question, Isnt HAL responsible for upkeep for all fighter aircraft ?

The reason for HAL being sullied now in this way is definitely linked with next gen aircraft and all the drama surrounding that :(
Right, but has it been proved it’s due to HAL’s inefficiency we lost the jets? How many reports have even made it to the public forum on the root cause?? My question is why is every single joe talking about HAL now?? Even those who knew nothing about the existence of this public sector is up on stage shouting slogans against it! I mean, why is so much of hatred suddenly against HAL when nothing’s even remotely pointing towards the actual root cause!!

Guess we should just rest this thread until something concrete comes up through the ongoing investigation.
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Old 7th February 2019, 00:03   #43
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

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Originally Posted by vinair View Post
And why HAL now sir?? How many jets have we lost in the last few decades and in how many cases have we heard the name ‘HAL’ cropping up??

Forget about ISRO, imagine living in peace with the fact that the next gen fighter aircraft is going to be manufactured by a company that has just filed for bankruptcy
Reliance isn't manufacturing Rafale. Period.

And just because they have filled for bankruptcy in one of the many businesses they have doesn't mean they cannot do the other job well.

The Aircraft was repaired by HAL and it failed during testing. Reasons enough to ask questions about them. It's fair to let them state their case as well.

Let the culprits be identified post that.
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:08   #44
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

Well, lo and behold - We armchair warriors have already dissed HAL, blamed them for crashing a ‘state of the art’ fighter die to their incompetence all the while ignoring the fact that this is one of the 1000’s of aircraft manufactured or maintained or upgraded at HAL.
Why are we blaming HAL? Has the VayuSena at any time said that it was HAL at fault? You know why? Coz there is still a crash to be investigated.

For all we know it could have been a reason completely different from the recent upgrade as well. What if there was FOD (something on the runway that was ingested into the engine)? What if there was a bird strike, what if there was a flameout, what if there was a hydraulic failure - which can happen due to myriad reasons, what if there was a weather related anomaly?
There are so many What Ifs!
What I am trying to say here is
- we lost two of our best
- we lost one of the most reliable birds
- we lost our sleep over finding who to blame
Can we wait till the CoI is complete?
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Old 7th February 2019, 09:44   #45
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Default Re: Bangalore: 2 pilots killed in Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet crash

If it had not been for the Rafale Vs Reliance Vs HAL Vs political mongering, the finger pointing at HAL would not be happening

For the nth time, lets await the COI findings.
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