Team-BHP - Tata vs Ashok Leyland: CV & HCV only

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Originally Posted by n.devdath (Post 1958709)

Twelve thousand views to read a hundred and eighteen posts, in my opinion, mean,there are a lot of people who want to know who buys an AL and who buys a TATA of the same configuration and why, and we, at least on this count, seem to be short on information.

Hoping for some direction to the thread... :(

I hope for the same and I personally do not have any information about the same. However, I am of the opinion that Tata's truck range is now much more advanced that the Ashok Leyland range, specially because of their Prima and Novus range of trucks.

For all their clout with transport departments, Ashok Leyland has always taken the shortcut (using tie-ups to produce trucks) to try and make money, mainly by investing much less than Tata in research and development. I understand that Ashok Leyland fans might be up in arms about this, but I know it for a fact that Tata invests more in R&D (even in % terms) than AshLey.

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Originally Posted by hvkumar (Post 1899445)

Yes, I noticed that when I went to Aurangabad recently. Not only Aurangabad, I also found a lot of the Marathwada region - Beed, Osmanabad, etc - populated by only ALs.

AL seems to have clawed itself back into BEST again, all the new CNG and low-floor AC bus are AL.

If you are talking about MSRTC (state transport) then the state is divided as follows.
1. konkan - Leyland
2. Westerm MH - TATA
3. Marathwada & Khandesh - Leyland
4. Vidarbha (eastern MH) - Tata

This has been the case since my childhood.

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Originally Posted by qj7081 (Post 1960623)

But there has been some major changeover. The Mumbai region which was all-Leyland is now all-Tata, except for some short-haul (Panvel/Uran) CNG buses out of Kurla Nehru Nagar Depot. I heard some talk of a powerful dealer having switched loyalties over some commission disputes. Even in Konkan, some depots like Alibag, Roha, etc, started getting Tatas too.

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Originally Posted by Amartya (Post 1959374)

However, I am of the opinion that Tata's truck range is now much more advanced that the Ashok Leyland range, specially because of their Prima and Novus range of trucks.

Agreed for this part with Prima range alone. Tata has nothing to claim the development of Novus as they were developed by Daewoo and later been taken over by Tata.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amartya (Post 1959374)

For all their clout with transport departments, Ashok Leyland has always taken the shortcut (using tie-ups to produce trucks) to try and make money, mainly by investing much less than Tata in research and development. I

Here I have some different opinion.
I don have the stats regarding the amount of money each of them spend on R&D but still I have the following points in favour of Ashokleyland.
AL have heavily invested in making its own range of engines - Neptune series. But Tata still is behind Cummins for the engines. They always play a safer game in development.
I would like to say both of them needs to drastically revisit their strategy towards R&D investment as they still have a larger ground to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amartya (Post 1959374)

understand that Ashok Leyland fans might be up in arms about this, but I know it for a fact that Tata invests more in R&D (even in % terms) than AshLey.

Just to share the info and nothing to raise my armsplease:

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Originally Posted by Ashley2 (Post 1961084)

AL have heavily invested in making its own range of engines - Neptune series. But Tata still is behind Cummins for the engines. They always play a safer game in development.

I think Tatas are better off strategically, Engines are much sophisticated these days and need lot of R&D investment. Leave that to specialists (Cummins) and concentrate on other areas to improve the overall product. That is one reason, they are able to introduce more models and variants in a shorter timeframe. This is a strategy followed by other manufactures around the world, make the high volume engines inhouse, procure the niche ones from the specialists. Volvo uses Cummins Engine in some of their trucks, Navistar uses Paccar engines in few of their vehicles. Also another advantage for Tata is they have a joint venture with Cummins, not just a sourcing agreement. Read this announcement yesterday
[Cummins to invest $300 mn to set up 4 units in next 5 years-Auto Components-Auto-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times]

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The company will set up an engine manufacturing facility with its joint venture partner Tata. It will start with an initial capacity of 60,000 units by the end of this financial year
Besides this engine facility, the company will set up a rebuild centre for generators, re-conditioning facility and a parts distribution unit within the complex.

It looks like Cummins investment in Automobiles engines in India is thru the Joint Venture with Tatas.

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Originally Posted by Ashley2 (Post 1961084)

Agreed for this part with Prima range alone. Tata has nothing to claim the development of Novus as they were developed by Daewoo and later been taken over by Tata.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I knew about this, but chose to cite this purely as being more advanced than what AL had on offer. That was the moot point in my post, you are right - of course- about the Daewoo takeover.

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Originally Posted by Ashley2 (Post 1961084)

Again, thanks for sharing this. Yes, I understand that developing an engine is indeed an achievement, but this is very similar to the engine sharing going on in the car industry (the Fiat 1.3MJD is everywhere), where a manufacturer chose to source engines from someone else with the edge in engine design.

That being said, I appreciate that AL has invested in developing their own engine, I think although it might not make too much business sense, it is indeed praiseworthy.

I would say that Tata doesn't really need to change too much in their R&D setup, I don't know enough about AL though.

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Originally Posted by teamveevee (Post 1961392)

This is a strategy followed by other manufactures around the world, make the high volume engines inhouse, procure the niche ones from the specialists. Volvo uses Cummins Engine in some of their trucks, Navistar uses Paccar engines in few of their vehicles.

could you tell me as to which particular volvo model uses cummins engine and in which country?

also which navistar models use paccar engines?

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Originally Posted by conjon (Post 1961582)

could you tell me as to which particular volvo model uses cummins engine and in which country?

also which navistar models use paccar engines?

I hope your post was meant purely for information and you weren't doubting teemveevee's claim, because it was fairly easy to find out and confirm.

Volvo Cummins - This link below talks about the venture between Volvo and Cummins - Cummins Every Time - In The News - U.S. Press Releases - Press Release

Navistar Paccar - They both source engines from Caterpillar (not all but certain engines) - The 2010 US Diesel Engine Landscape - Paccar?s Approach Will Be Most Changed Without Cat - GLG News
The US Diesel Engine Landscape Is Clearer - Navistar?s / Caterpillar?s ?Star? Looks Brighter - GLG News

Most of the news is from North America.

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Originally Posted by Amartya (Post 1961587)

I knew navistar group company MWM was supplying engines to Volvo, VW HCV's in Brazil.I had a doubt as to whether teamvee had misquoted this as cummins. Also the Volvo group is using the Detriot Diesel mill in their Prevost coaches, the volvo engine is optional.

Always thought that paccar was depending solely on their own and DAF engines which they had procured in late 90's.

looks like engine development is a very expensive affair hence outsourced to majors like cummins and caterpillar.

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Originally Posted by conjon (Post 1961654)

looks like engine development is a very expensive affair hence outsourced to majors like cummins and caterpillar.

Conjon, You may be right, my bad memory. I typed paccar, what i wanted to say was caterpiller. This is mostly in North / Latin American markets.
[ie Volvo uses Cummins, Navistar uses Caterpiller in certain models] I think you got the point i was trying to make.

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Originally Posted by n.devdath (Post 1945948)

I was at Delhi last week and was able to make a few observations about the AL low floor city buses introduced by DTC alongside the Marcopolos.

They are better in terms of pick up and drivability.

The driver ergonomics though, I feel, is better on Marcopolos.

The AL buses have/seem to have more floor space.

The fit and finish of the ALs is better on the inside and the Marcopolos on the outside.

The AL buses use real big rub rails on their sides.

Drivers told me that the AL buses give them around 3.5kmpl compared to 2.75-3kmpl given by the Marcopolos.

Dev might be right. The DTC buses are fully built at AL's Alwar plant compared to the other bus bodies built all over the country (but for AL facilities)

Agreed marketing is a fact or where TATA apex's its self, but its more of terrain oriented market like in northern region TATAs are more preferable to southern LEYLAND being dominater as much of the industry and common man knows...but modernasiation and JVs like NAVISTAR with m&M, Leyland with HINO, TATA with daewoo may share good market when its standard is understood by masses....mean while Volvo, AMW, MAN, Eicher & to some extent Force have understood this deep nerve and therfore gaining pace between these two giants...
Its like an era where Fiats and Ambassadors are to be repalce by Suzukis, Daewoo,Opel
As the sector is highly dependent on after sales maintainence...

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Originally Posted by n.devdath (Post 1898181)

The quintessential question: Which is better and on what counts?
The 2 biggest CV makers in India have been at loggerheads with each other for the M &HCV commercial market share ever since they begun production.

Tata rules the roost when it comes to sheer numbers but Ashok Leyland has a permanent and steadily growing clientèle.

But all that is marketing terminology. Lets discuss why do some customers choose a Tata Bus/Truck Chassis over an Ashok Leyland Bus/Truck chassis of a comparable capacity and vice versa?

Reasons could be:

Performance,operating terrain, Fuel Efficiency, Reliability, NVH, Price, After sales support, Resale...the list is long.

This thread is an attempt to know the positives and negatives of both the brands when it comes to the most commonly purchased bus and truck chassis by the vanilla transporter/tourist operator in India.

Let's shift into overdrive....:thumbs up

Adding a new point of contention here, Gradeability.
This is based on Ashley's post on Raj's Thread for new AC Bus (did not want to hijack that thread). In the brochure attachment for comparison between TATA 1616 and ALPSV 4/86 that TATA has better gradability than AL despite better power and torque ratings. How is this possibile? Is it due to longer stroke on the cummins engine?
Has TATA always provided better Gradeability than AL?

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Originally Posted by DWind (Post 2070070)

Adding a new point of contention here,
Has TATA always provided better Gradeability than AL?

Not sure about the tech specs but having stayed in a terrain where grad-ability is tested on a daily basis, I have seen AL buses exhibiting it far better than TATAs.

Gearing also might play a role here.