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Old 27th June 2018, 23:30   #16
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by Amartya View Post
Even if they drive less that 80kms per day, having to charge the car (say once every 2 - 3 days) is an annoyance.

The question is why did the issue with the range not be something that they could foresee (or at least during the contract negotiation)? Or if they foresaw it, why/who ignored it?

The previous generation of the Nissan Leaf had a 24KWh .

Made some good points, sir.

This smacks of bad implementation of a good idea, as usual.

Firstly: Charging infrastructure at work parking should have been provided, thus they can travel 80 km one way without a hassle. Charging every day or two days or three days is not actually an annoyance if the plug is next to the car. In fact, I find going to a petrol pump to be more annoying with lines, waits and all that goes with that.

Secondly: These cars are both substandard in the global EV world because they are modified internal combustion cars. Cars built on an EV platform perform well in terms of range, such as the Bolt, Leaf, Tesla 3, Tesla S, Tesla X etc. The only relatively successful conversion of an IC car to full electric I can think of is the E-Golf with a test range of 300 km. Simple fact is, batteries need space. In all EV platforms, they use the "skateboard design", a rectangular shaped battery housing between front and rear axle.

If these cars were up to standard, they'd be sold in Europe or other markets where EVs are popular. I believe it is Norway that has 50%+ EV registrations presently - neither Tata nor Mahindra would be successful there due to range limitations.

Thirdly (and finally) EV Range is something that will become an issue of the past. Battery energy density is growing rapidly. The old Nissan Leaf 24 KwH battery and the new 40 KwH battery are exact same size and dimensions and weight. That's almost double capacity within one model span. By the 2020's it's entirely likely to see 300-400-500 km range cars in the mass market. 17 KwH is just miserably low.

Final word: maybe we should check if the drivers are sitting in the car with the AC running. Entirely possible!
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Old 27th June 2018, 23:43   #17
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

That is how the politician- bureaucrat equations work. A glaring example of foot in the mouth disease, from which the politicians habitually suffer. Announcements galore by these politicians, there is no research or back-up data, truth, valid foresight or vision in such utterances.

They purportedly feel elated and puffed-up that such hollow and shallow level thinking pronouncements will become laws or government notifications/ office orders or office memorandums, that will make them overnight heroes amongst the masses and vote banks, when they will proclaim that they have got rid of fossil fuel cars for Babus.

Evidently, no research or back-up data or any valid inputs from the respective car manufacturers was available with these top level politicians when they created a hoopla and announced that "India will have switch over to 100 % electric mobility by 2030." And announcements were made that the government of India will buy only electric cars from with immediate effect from now on, right from 2018.

A high-profile politician who made such an announcement and whom I regularly see, has big fat BMW SUV's in his personal fleet (owned by him).

The fact is that bureaucrats know that they will be doomed with their movements, if such 80 km run limited vehicles come for their official use. Most were using Ambassadors and they are now cool with Maruti Ciaz's, SX 4's, Honda Citys, Toyota Corolla Altis, Tata Safaris and Mahindra Scorpios. All these have their own poise and grace as compared to the 80 km per charge offerings in electric, from Tata and Mahindra. Suppose, if the driver of a senior bureaucrat drives him to work and back, with a day long visit to various offices etc doing the full 80 kms for that day. In the evening, that driver has to suddenly go on emergency leave or becomes unwell or sick. He forgets to plug the car for charging, hence. What about the bureaucrat's movement for the next day ?

Such announcements stir up and disrupt the otherwise performing automobile industry.All manufacturers were disturbed by such announcements as they are investing heavily for the BS VI norms, to become effective w.e.f. April 2020. If within ten years the fossil fuel automobiles were to be buried, the buyers and the industry would both be unnerved.

These also cause unwanted resentment among the bureaucrats, who have proven ways and are experienced enough to get these policies dumped in the bin.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 27th June 2018 at 23:51.
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Old 28th June 2018, 02:16   #18
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

Reva used to give 60-80 kms 10 years back. Honestly it speaks very bad of the industry if they haven't moved on from that. An official staying in faridabad and working in new Delhi won't be able to a daily round trip in this. And on govt salaries, if you are not provided accommodation, you have to stay in satellite towns.
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Old 28th June 2018, 02:36   #19
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by selfdrive View Post
Lack of snob value
This is most definitely the reason for them rejecting the EV. If the PM can get a Toyota Land Cruiser, why can't I get one.

Wondering how they put up with the iconic HM Ambassador. These EV's should be bliss in comparison.
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Old 28th June 2018, 10:07   #20
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by rajathv8 View Post
I believe stating a need of > 80Km for a gov official may be a valid claim.
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Originally Posted by libranof1987 View Post
While I agree with most of your other points (why not use public transport, officials could want a car with "snob" value); I think 80kms is a very minimal requirement.
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Originally Posted by Amartya View Post
The lack of range (80-82km), the charging infrastructure (charge at work/charge at home for how long etc.) are both more critical issues. Even if they drive less that 80kms per day, having to charge the car (say once every 2 - 3 days) is an annoyance.
They could be allocated a couple of extra batteries, which they could leave charging at either end of their commute. This could be a workaround till Tata/ M&M develop batteries with better capacity.

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Totally different topic - and our country will take a lot of time reaching that state of social equality. State owned vehicles are here to stay, atleast for the short to medium term.
Well, if we are talking social equality they should even buy their own tickets for public transport. I am saying give them monthly passes for public transport. This will trigger hitherto unseen improvements in quality and timeliness of services provided. If all the millions put in buying/ maintaining vehicles are optimised across the board, this will only help the taxpayer.
My grouse is with the sense of entitlement these people have when they refuse to use what has already been decided.

On another note altogether, what environmental impact does the production of a battery have? Is it eventually less than that of fossil fuels? And is the energy being used to recharge these batteries clean energy? Or is the electricity generated by burning fossil fuels in the first place?
As said by others here, till the end to end strategy is implemented, this will not work. Not for the users, not for the manufacturers and definitely not for the environment.

About the charging points, here is an image of charging points available in Paris. Do we have any plans to build such a network in our cities? If so, where would this be done?
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Old 28th June 2018, 11:06   #21
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

How come EESL is surprised? Did they finalise the two cars without doing any field tests? I am sure they must have tested the cars before giving the contract, agreeing to take the delivery of the first batch. If they didn't and it was all based on trust, I believe someone didn't do his job properly.

If they did test the cars and now the sarkari drivers can't get the same figures, then we are firing rockets in the wrong direction. Sarkari drivers have never driven with fuel efficiency in mind. I will not be surprised if they are struggling for efficiency.

And can they not allot the cars according to one's daily run? Every post has a different job. Not every babu lives 50 kms away. And not every one of them has a daily field trip. The cars can be easily allotted to officials who have a limited run or live nearby.

The ending of fuel allowance for the babus also raises questions. If it was one sure shot way of adding some money to their salaries, it is expected to cause some resistance.

Misuse of government cars by officials is known to everybody. That side trip or personal trip could have been managed in a petrol / diesel vehicle. But, with limited range, EVs make it difficult for them, that makes another reason for the resistance.

Still, I am waiting for Mahindra and Tata to respond on the issue.

In Overdrive's review, Mahesh Babu, the CTO of Mahindra Electric, did mention that in everyday driving, the e-Verito should give 90km driving range. And that the 130 km figure comes from the ARAI test, which is held under controlled conditions. So, it is not that they were trying to hide anything.

And I will call that EESL official plain stupid if he/she believed that our sarkari drivers will achieve the ARAI figure in real world conditions.

I am assuming a better battery with a better range will cost more. And EESL and the manufacturers must have talked about it. They must have finalised the specifications, including the battery capacity, at a price.

Is it that EESL wishes to get cars with better specifications for the same price?

I am sure, everyone is aware that the source of the news story is anonymous officials from the EESL and Government ministries. Is it a way of arm twisting the manufacturers? Possible, may be.

Bottomline, if Maruti tells me that the Dzire gives 30kpl as per ARAI. I will not cry foul, go to the media, complaining that I couldn't get the same figure and now I want a new engine in my car.

Last edited by ashutoshb : 28th June 2018 at 11:12. Reason: Added a link
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Old 28th June 2018, 11:25   #22
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

This is really a very lame objection, i must say. EESL was aware of the specs and the range of these vehicles before they finalized these cars to be introduced in the fleet. Now saying that the range is low is just not acceptable.

Not only its a concern for all of us as the cars were bought from tax payers money and also a concern for the auto manufacturers like Tata and Mahindra as it brings a lot of negative buzz in the market. Yes, the range is low, but, when it was already known to EESL, why did they even go ahead with them. If, the products were not at par, why waste tax payers money on their experiment.

How about saying it this way, the requirements that were raised by EESL were wrong and the blame is on the cars and car manufacturers now. If, Tata and Mahindra had low range products, they could have gone with Nissan which is way ahead in terms of electric car technology (Nissan was one of the contenders for this electric fleet).

EESL gave their requirements and RFQ was raised, they test the products and finalize Tata/Mahindra as the best. Now this blame, the specifications and range were all in the open domain and we all knew this. Its really irritating to see them giving these excuses now. If government employees are complaining and refusing, its the requirements raised by EESL which are wrong and eve the finalisation of these products by EESL was wrong.

As even Mr Sirish Chandran tweeted - "Not their money,so bindaas"

Last edited by shravan2k2 : 28th June 2018 at 11:27.
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Old 28th June 2018, 12:04   #23
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

When you were expecting a Tesla Model X, and you get a clunky "desi" EV, you are bound to be disappointed; almost as much as we are, when we reach the "Help" desk at the RTO and find "help" is not in the bureaucracy's vocabulary.



Thank god, they did not foist this on the public. We are a long way off from even getting our basics straight (I just came from reading that thread on axle breakage on a new Tata vehicle). Until we can compete with Tesla, I'd say we'd better off with electric trams and trolley-buses. (Apologies, I'm pushing my agenda for non-polluting public transport my way)
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Old 28th June 2018, 12:32   #24
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

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Originally Posted by ashutoshb View Post
...
Bottomline, if Maruti tells me that the Dzire gives 30kpl as per ARAI. I will not cry foul, go to the media, complaining that I couldn't get the same figure and now I want a new engine in my car.
This is not the bottomline! Industry should change. Remember the VW scandal? There is another one in the smoke for a while now and that has to do with the real world mileage figures. Why do you think, people in western countries are fighting for it? If my car manufacturer says, it would give 30 kmpl, I expect it to do atleast 25, if not do not mention it or mention the worst value. Eye washing the customer is as good as cheating him/her.

With "WLTP/RDE" coming into effect here in europe, the mileage figures for cars(on paper values) have dropped significantly, which now are closer to reality.

How is it even remotely acceptable to say that "ARAI figures" and real world figures will vary?
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Old 28th June 2018, 12:51   #25
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

@APHALIKO, What you are saying is closer to what the regulators do and not the manufacturers.

ARAI figures come from ARAI, not the manufacturers.

If you are saying ARAI figures should be closer to reality, I am with you.

And are we seriously expecting manufacturers to publish their worst FEs? I think not.

Off topic, how would I come up with the worst worst FE figure? Driving in first gear at its max speed all way long, carrying 10 passengers while towing a car? Maybe
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Old 28th June 2018, 13:06   #26
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

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@APHALIKO, What you are saying is closer to what the regulators do and not the manufacturers.
Regulators should work for the people and not for the industries

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Originally Posted by ashutoshb View Post
ARAI figures come from ARAI, not the manufacturers.
If you are saying ARAI figures should be closer to reality, I am with you.
If ARAI cannot have a test procedure that is mimicking reality, I am not sure, whom else should we trust! Its time they change their protocols of testing.

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And are we seriously expecting manufacturers to publish their worst FEs? I think not...
I am sure you are aware of how the fuel efficiency test is done by the manufacturers!

Its no less than a joke. They put the vehicle on a test bed, simulate lab weather conditions of 20 C and unmount the Rear-view mirrors and all other possible aerodynamically inefficient components, a/c off, electricals with minimum consumption and lug the engine at said speed. They repeat the tests, until the predetermined fuel efficiency figure is reached. The test is repeated so many times until the "highest" mileage figure becomes statistically important and then its culminated.

In the new age of electric propulsion for cars, the real world consumption becomes even more important. Firstly, to satisfy our unnecessary "range anxiety" and secondly to give the end user the idea of how long can they drive with essential units ON and where to stop for recharging. Unlike, some countries like Norway (which has electrified vehicles a lot more than one can imagine), the Indian charging station network is nearly inexistent. Moreover, the electricity supply is so unpredictable, where should we go for the additional load of charging the vehicles?

Thus, imho, 80 - 90kms range for electric vehicles totally unacceptable, be it for govt. officials or for private vehicles. No wonder the govt. officials rejected these cars.

Sorry for the long rant.
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Old 28th June 2018, 13:41   #27
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

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Reva used to give 60-80 kms 10 years back. Honestly it speaks very bad of the industry if they haven't moved on from that. An official staying in faridabad and working in new Delhi won't be able to a daily round trip in this. And on govt salaries, if you are not provided accommodation, you have to stay in satellite towns.
I not for one moment believe what the government employees claim. First of all both cars struggling with the exact same range of 80kms is doubtful. They are not two very identical vehicles, are they?

Secondly the Indica electric platform was developed back in 2008-09 for trial production in Europe with a means tested 200 km range!

Since then batteries have only got better, enabling cars to travel further. So the 130 kms quoted by the company sounds realistic.

The question is why go through all the trouble of providing these people with state funded vehicles. Let them use public transport like the rest. I know it's a discussion for another time but they do not know how blessed they are with the myriad of benefits enjoyed from the public purse!
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Old 28th June 2018, 14:01   #28
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

I believe any car with less than 150 km range won't be sufficient for anybody (unless of course, its a second car just used for very short trips). 80 KM range is inadequate even if there is ample charging infrastructure (because even the fast-charging charging stations are not as quick as petrol bunks).
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Old 28th June 2018, 14:34   #29
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

As the pilot project is in Delhi and Andhra (safe to assume capital city again). Most govt officials will actually be travelling more than 80KM in a day and particularly in Delhi.

I know few govt. officers in Delhi who commute more than this in their current govt provided vehicle.
We have to remember many officers do not keep vehicle at residence, those have to go back to office building everyday after dropping the person home.

Coming to Actual use case, EV could be a good one to use within some manufacturing plants one unit to other.

Last edited by CarJunki : 28th June 2018 at 14:42.
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Old 28th June 2018, 17:33   #30
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Default Re: Govt officials refuse to use electric cars made by Mahindra & Tata Motors

Very disappointing news that the EV's supplied by motor companies does not do what they were supposed to do and ultimately will end up in a corner waiting for passengers and ultimately death.

Not sure if the Government is actually serious about creating infrastructure that promotes people turning out to this green technology.
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