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View Poll Results: Can a 250km real range EV meet your daily needs, given you can charge overnight at home?
Yes for weekdays, no for weekends 185 56.57%
Yes for both weekdays and weekends 100 30.58%
No for both weekdays and weekends 37 11.31%
Others 5 1.53%
Voters: 327. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 25th December 2019, 16:11   #16
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

Off Topic: To the EV experts or those who follow the worldwide developments made in this tech:

Where are we on the possibility/implementation of switchable battery packs? Like if I'm running low on my battery then instead of waiting several hours for it to get charged, I can just switch it with an already charged battery pack by either going to a facility which does this job or getting it replaced by a charged battery home delivered to me like how we do it for LPG cylinders.

Asking this because in one way EVs feels like a revolution but can they be called as an advancement of what we have now considering that it takes no more than five to eight minutes to get our IC car refuelled, however to refuel (re-charge) an EV, it takes a lot more than that.

Last edited by Sherlocked : 25th December 2019 at 16:22.
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Old 25th December 2019, 16:48   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
250 km is enough for 99% of the people out there. For highway drives, you can always RENT a car from Zoom / Myles etc.

It's more of a mental block frankly. But one that will be solved easily as EVs with 500 - 700 km ranges aren't that far away on the horizon. I personally voted for option 1 on the poll as I drive on the highway about 2 - 3 times a month and hence, 250 km won't cut it for me.
GTO, I humbly disagree with your views.

250 KM is a good range provided it is the assured actual range in real world (not manufacturer tested range) and not something that detoriates with age of battery pack.

I am learning a few "real world" lessons from electric scooter I bought for my wife and I consider myself lucky that I did not spend lakhs to learn them (was thinking of selling baleno+breeza and replacing with Kona at one point).

Few things that could be done before EV cars are mainstream is:

- Standardize battery packs and charging points.

- Lease batteries and build battery swap stations (use existing infrastructure of petrol stations).

-Govt should step in with norms/regulations for safety of battery pack and assured duration for certified real world range ( say 50k Kms).

Offtopic, the general view that battery vehicles are less polluting than ICE based one is hardly true in a country like ours which generates arnd 70-80 percent power through thermal or non renewable sources. Carbon footprint of EVs vs ICE per KM needs to be studied and understood, else it's like moving the core problem from one part of country (cities) to another(towns/villages housing power plants)

Another point to ponder- Most of current battery tech is Lithum -ION or Lithium-polymer based. China continues to dominate lithium production. If the switchover happens from petrol to Lithium based EV's worldwide- Yuan might become the next dollar. This to me seems like a bad thing (Disclaimer: I have no background in economics)

Last edited by sathish81 : 25th December 2019 at 16:50.
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Old 25th December 2019, 18:38   #18
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

I voted for Option 1 - 250 km range is good enough for weekday drives in the city. Charging overnight means you are ready for the next day! Intercity travel is not feasible at the moment with this range.

Real World Battery Life and Real world kms / charge over time will be the key differentiators. Keeping fingers crossed that the battery sizes and weights will dramatically reduce in the next 2-3 years! Also, very valid points raised on whether the electricity generation is green / environment friendly else we are not addressing the real problem.

I personally think before we move decisively to the EV era, there has to be / will be a transition period with some hybrid fitment to existing petrol / diesel cars with small batteries, so people can get used to the concept and real world usage.
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Old 25th December 2019, 19:37   #19
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sathish81 View Post
250 KM is a good range provided it is the assured actual range in real world (not manufacturer tested range) and not something that detoriates with age of battery pack.

I am learning a few "real world" lessons from electric scooter I bought for my wife and I consider myself lucky that I did not spend lakhs to learn them (was thinking of selling baleno+breeza and replacing with Kona at one point).
Can you please tell us which electric scooter you bought? Most of the electric scooters sold in India have lead-acid batteries till now. Only recently we are seeing few scooters (Ather 450, few recent Hero Electric scooters, Revolt bikes, upcoming Bajaj Chetak, etc...) with Lithium-Ion batteries. Lead-acid batteries are the worst in battery degradation and the majority of the sales in the country till now are of those.

Quote:
Few things that could be done before EV cars are mainstream is:

- Standardize battery packs and charging points.

- Lease batteries and build battery swap stations (use the existing infrastructure of petrol stations).
Charging stations and plugs are mostly being standardized. Earlier there are 2 charging technologies (CCS and Chademo) with different plugs but now almost all the cars are coming with CCS2 adaptor. CCS2 is EU based while Chademo is from Japan. India also following CCS2 standard and all 3 cars in India (Kona, MG ZS and Nexon EV) comes with CCS2 plugs. Tesla has their own adaptor in the US but for the rest of the world, they are following CCS.

Coming to standard battery packs, it's not gonna happen. Batteries come in different shapes and sizes and chemistry behind each of those are different. Also, battery swapping stations are much more capital intensive than charging stations. With the ultra-fast chargers (250 KW - 350 KW) that are being established, the time difference between swapping and charging will be negligible.

With 250 KW charger, it takes just 11 minutes to add 224 km of range and 370 km of range in 26 minutes for Tesla Model 3. This is with current available EVs and charging technologies. There are already 350 KW charging stations being set up across Europe, China and the US which will be much faster than these.

EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?-v3_supercharger_speeds.jpg

Quote:
-Govt should step in with norms/regulations for the safety of battery pack and assured duration for certified real-world range ( say 50k Kms).
Agree about range guarantee. I don't if its mentioned in Kona or Nexon battery warranty but many companies warranty includes minimum of 70% of range as part of 8 years and 1,60,000 km warranty in EU and US.

Quote:
Offtopic, the general view that battery vehicles are less polluting than ICE based one is hardly true in a country like ours which generates arnd 70-80 percent power through thermal or non renewable sources. Carbon footprint of EVs vs ICE per KM needs to be studied and understood, else it's like moving the core problem from one part of country (cities) to another(towns/villages housing power plants)
Even when 90% of power generation is based on coal, EVs are much more cleaner than ICE (petrol/diesel) vehicles. Also, each year we are adding more and more renewable energy (solar and wind) capacity than coal capacity. Renewable energy is much cheaper now than coal for the last 2-3 years. Each year our grid gets cleaner than earlier. Our new renewable energy generation can power even if all the new car sales become EVs in 2020. [/quote]

Quote:
Another point to ponder- Most of current battery tech is Lithum -ION or Lithium-polymer based. China continues to dominate lithium production. If the switchover happens from petrol to Lithium based EV's worldwide- Yuan might become the next dollar. This to me seems like a bad thing (Disclaimer: I have no background in economics)
Lithium is not the major component of Lithium-Ion batteries. Nickel is the major component of Lithium-Ion batteries (see the below picture).

Name:  lion.png
Views: 1247
Size:  8.8 KB

Indonesia, Australia, Brazil, Russia, Cuba, etc... have more Nickel reserves than China. Even for Lithium, Chile, Australia, Argentina have more reserves than China.
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Old 26th December 2019, 00:35   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sri_tesla View Post
Can you please tell us which electric scooter you bought? Most of the electric scooters sold in India have lead-acid batteries till now. Only recently we are seeing few scooters (Ather 450, few recent Hero Electric scooters, Revolt bikes, upcoming Bajaj Chetak, etc...) with Lithium-Ion batteries. Lead-acid batteries are the worst in battery degradation and the majority of the sales in the country till now are .
Hero optima ES with removable lithium ion battery. Review here:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215323
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Old 26th December 2019, 00:44   #21
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Interesting read

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...ticle29176596/
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Old 26th December 2019, 10:15   #22
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

[quote=ashis89;4718297]I voted No for all days.

Currently the charging time is very high which will create bottlenecks and lead to queues while charging at shared public networks.

The idea is that you charge the car at night and then use it in the day. (Which is a change of habit of course). If your daily usage is below 250kms, then the three new gen electric cars being talked about would suit your requirement. Use of public charging and then being a bottleneck is out of the poll equation IMHO, due to their non existence!
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Old 26th December 2019, 11:00   #23
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

Honestly, ~250 - 300km EV range is enough for most users. If fast charging can be quick enough for topping up 100 km of range in 30 minutes, I think almost all highway journeys can be completed easily. There will always be some ultra long road trippers, but they are a minority in TBHP, forget rest of the population.

Availability of chargers and their reliability is another matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
250 km is enough for 99% of the people out there. For highway drives, you can always RENT a car from Zoom / Myles etc.
Renting a car in India is not fun.
1. Quality of cars and service is inconsistent
2. Speed limit to 80 kmph makes driving boring. A 120 kmph limit would be acceptable IMHO.

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 26th December 2019 at 11:01.
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Old 26th December 2019, 11:15   #24
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

Voted "Yes for weekdays, no for weekends". Though in reality, the option for me would be "Yes for city use, no for the 3-4 road trips in a year".


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
250 km is enough for 99% of the people out there. For highway drives, you can always RENT a car from Zoom / Myles etc.

This makes a lot of sense on paper. But, the car rental scene in India does not seem to be reliable. After reading all the horror stories of people getting dirty cars/cars with issues/last minute cancellations, I have never dared to plan a road trip using a rental car. It has to be my car. The last thing I want is to ruin my family holiday due to an unprofessional car rental service.


So I would still need to have a EV for my city needs and an ICE powered car for my road trips.
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Old 26th December 2019, 11:21   #25
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
I think a large majority of people use cars for less than the range what an EV can churn out even today. What is the biggest turn off is the range anxiety for that occasional highway trip and dearth of charging stations. Fast charging would be another bottleneck in the adoption of EVs.

Most of us do not have the luxury of 2 personal cars so we can't use the EV for regular weekdays and bring out the gas guzzler on the weekends or for that highway run.
This is the dilemma in a nutshell. In long run, fast-charging stations on highways would solve this.

But in short run, can be solved by renting an ICEV for the occasional highway run. Most of use would do a highway trip only once in a while. Rather than spending on a larger battery pack upfront, (whose full range will go unused 90% of time), better to rent an ICEV. If your highway/long-range driving is max 7 - 10 days a quarter, would work out better.

Eminently feasible given the plethora of rental options today. In fact a smart EV-maker would tie-up with a car rental firm to offer this seamlessly.

Also to note: A larger & heavier battery pack is not only expensive, but also affects storage capacity & driving dynamics.
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Old 26th December 2019, 11:40   #26
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

250 km range may be enough for 99% of the people, but a 250 km EV would be surely out of range (in $$$) of 99% of the people.

Last edited by Thermodynamics : 26th December 2019 at 11:50.
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Old 26th December 2019, 12:18   #27
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

When I think about buying an EV today, I feel a bit of (range) anxiety. But if I retrospect my last 10 year's travelling by road using my own vehicle, 250km real world range would be sufficient for me.

Daily run was/is 20-30km in weekdays, and max 50km in weekend (not all weekend though); I took one short trip per quarter which were 200-350km, in which may be some 4 or 5 trips were >250km and <350km. And some 3 or 4 trips in 10 years which were more than 400km. So for around 10 trips in last 10 years I would have needed a ICE vehicle.

So logically I should not have any range anxiety. To remove all sort of range anxiety from everyone, infrastructure needs to be in place (those 1hr fast charge stations) all over the highways in similar distances as current days petrol pumps.

Another reason this anxiety comes is indirect as many other commented the (low) quality of service from self drive rental company.

Last edited by dipdawiz : 26th December 2019 at 12:19.
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Old 26th December 2019, 12:59   #28
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

The EVs are fantastic machines with 3 real world issues.

1. Charging infrastructure is still minimal in India.
2. Charging time needs to come down to 15-20 minutes.
3. Battery replacement costs.

I think, like we use a spare wheel in our cars, there has to be a provision of spare battery. If the mechanism to replace the existing battery with the spare becomes easy, then EVs can become a delight. We can simply carry the battery home and charge it overnight. Offcourse the size of the battery should become smaller and smaller to make this practically possible. May be we need to wait for some more years for this to happen.
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Old 26th December 2019, 13:25   #29
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

As a city car, EV's with a range of 250 km range is more than sufficient for approx 90% of the salaried class people as it is not everyday they go long distances, if for a change they have to travel to work somewhere they can use public transport or rent a car from Zoom or Revv. The only disadvantages EV have is they are still out of reach as majority of the cars sold in India are under the 15 lakh mark.

As a petrolhead it is very sad to see the sales of ICE engined cars diminishing.
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Old 26th December 2019, 14:49   #30
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Default Re: EVs with a 250 km range, can they meet your daily requirement?

Voted Option 3 - No and this is subject to change based on how things change in future.

My 2 cents on why i voted for this option and why it can change in future:

1. Raw material used for Electricity Generation: Most of India's power plants still use fossil fuel for generating electricity. In such a scenario, all our charging stations and household charging would still utilize fossil fuel indirectly. As we move to hydro electricity and solar energy to reduce dependency on fossil fuels, this situation will definitely change in future. Till then, this item definitely needs to be a factored in while calculating how much CO2 emissions was saved while driving an EV because like all other costs, driving an EV has an indirect cost of pollution to it at present.

2. Range: Currently, my daily run is about 100 km to and fro from home to office and if i consider that, i am looking at an average 2.5 days worth of travel. My office has charging ports in its basement and so will there be charging facility available at home but then comes #1 in picture again. In a not so ideal scenario where there is extreme traffic, like in rainy seasons where you are stuck in jams for like 50 mins to an hour by moving just 2-4 kms, i am not sure how this 250-300 km claim will work out. Once there is more clarity on this from someone who has used an EV for a full cycle across seasons, this point would be clear.

3. Battery Life: If i take #2 into picture, i am looking at a charging the vehicle every 2 days on an average. I might have missed this information while reading through forums for EV battery but all the ions in battery have a life till which they can hold onto charge for the maximum amount of time. Post that, they lose charge faster. This is similar to how our battery life in mobile phones degrade after a certain number of charge cycles. The reason i am not directly using US data to derive anything for India is because battery age and performance depends on weather as well and batteries tend to degrade faster in hot weather and in this regards, Delhi and New York might have different effect on battery due to pure environmental factors.

4. Charging Stations or the lack of it: The ideal state would be of a conventional petrol pump has a dedicated section for charging EV with fast chargers, that can top-up cars enough to drive back home from where they can then charge it fully overnight. For highways, this would be full top-up scenarios. Till that happens, bumper to bumper traffic's impact on battery needs to be seen. Sure there are system like KERS and other regenerative technology being built to charge cars through deceleration but how effective that would be for a city running is the scenario.

All the above mentioned factors can definitely change in future and can impact my decision of whether i can go with an EV for all 7 days or 5 days atleast, which is the point i was trying to make in the start.

Related but slightly off topic: In a book that i read called "Predictably Irrational" there is a concept of how human mind behaves to the idea of something being "Free". The chapter states that if government or any body wants people to adapt to something new or radically different from what they are currently doing, a "reduction" wouldn't force them to take the step but make it "Free" and see how people look up to it. This concept can apply to road tax for EV. Image a hypothetical scenario where road tax is exempt for EV cars and your (Ex-showroom price + minor charges for accessories) = On-road price of the car. Wouldn't that be a sweet deal and at least make you seriously consider buying an EV over a regular ICE car?
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