[thiagar]

At this point, people would not mind coming back to the proven/reliable/traditional way. This might just be part of a larger push and pull which is part of any change.

I got smiles as soon as I saw this discussion though

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Actually, the US has one of the worst power grids in the western world.....

A few observations :

The power loss in a transmission line does not depend on the distribution voltage (110V AC or 230VAC). Normally called the I2R loss, it depends mainly on the distance between the generation and usage points. That's one of the reasons why the transmission voltage is of the order of a few KV (110KV in India) while the distribution is in few hundred volts (Terminal voltage at home). However the present topic, as i understand it, was that EV users were switching to ICE due to higher waiting time at public charging booths. So the domestic terminal voltage has nothing to do with it.

Public chargers (or fast chargers) draw their main supply from a higher capacity power source which by all means would be a direct line from a substation (bulk supply as it is called in India) with a higher terminal voltage than 110V AC or 230V AC. In India a bulk supply is usually 6.6Kv. I am not sure how it operates in US or for that matter in Europe too.

Domestic chargers are not fast charges. They usually take around, I don't know, 4-8 hours probably to go from 10% to 100%. Even here it has to understood that you need to draw a separate line from your distribution box to the charger since you can't put a charger at the end of a circuit. It would create too much load imbalance. Here too your terminal voltage makes no difference. Your charger would equally accept both 110V AC and 230V AC.

PS: The US being almost the size of Europe (leave Russia out of it ) has a huge distribution network so no wonder part of it needs some overhauling.

[Jeroen]

Some more observations:

Originally Posted by srini1785

The power loss in a transmission line does not depend on the distribution voltage (110V AC or 230VAC).

Correct, power loss is something different from AC to DC conversion I was mentioning. The former takes place in the transmission network, the latter mostly in your home.

Originally Posted by srini1785

Public chargers (or fast chargers) draw their main supply from a higher capacity power source which by all means would be a direct line from a substation (bulk supply as it is called in India) with a higher terminal voltage than 110V AC or 230V AC. In India a bulk supply is usually 6.6Kv. I am not sure how it operates in US or for that matter in Europe too.

Same way.

Originally Posted by srini1785

Domestic charges are not fast charges. They usually take around, I don't know, 4-8 hours probably to go from 10% to 100%. Even here it has to understood that you need to draw a separate line from your distribution box to the charger since you can't put a charger at the end of a circuit. It would create too much load imbalance. Here too your terminal voltage makes no difference. Your charger would equally accept both 110V AC and 230V AC.

It all depends on how fast you want to charge. The standard Tesla wall connector as they call it just plugs into your normal socket. BUT, it requires your home electrical connection to be rated at 30Amp. Most home owner will have a 25Amp, so you need to upgrade.

If you want to charge faster you might have to draw a separate circuit from your connection box. However, it might also require modification of your connection box. It all depends on how fast you want to charge.

Originally Posted by srini1785

PS: The US being almost the size of Europe (leave Russia out of it ) has a huge distribution network so no wonder part of it needs some overhauling.

Well,, some of those American folks claim to be living in the greatest nation and still they can’t even provide some basic reliable infrastructure for all. Nothing to do with size. USA is an extremely wealth country, they are just way behind on upgrading their infrastructure. Ask Biden!

It’s not so much a technical problem, it is a direct result of how the Power market in the USA is organised. It is a direct result of having no, or very little oversight and mandate for federal/state authorities to put any regulatory demands on the providers. Just my opinion.

Jeroen

[sivasain]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

... I mean 110-120VAC! Not many countries still running 110/120VAC.

Regardless, your home electrical power is a factor. Here in the Netherlands everybody has 220VAC/50Hz. Most home have a 20 or 25Amp connection, one or three phase.

Jeroen

Actually, most homes in america have 240v coming in. But converted at the service entry to 110v for most appliances except heavy duty stuff.

https://www.electronicproducts.com/w...in-the-world/#

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by sivasain

Actually, most homes in america have 240v coming in. But converted at the service entry to 110v for most appliances except heavy duty stuff.

https://www.electronicproducts.com/w...in-the-world/#

The 240V is three phase, using L1 and L2(two hot legs). If you use L1 and N (center tap according to the article) that is single phase which is 120V. In India and many countries single phase is 230V and 3 phase is 400V.

If you remember window ACs use below kind of plug, which is a 3 phase plug point.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

The 240V is three phase, using L1 and L2(two hot legs). If you use L1 and N (center tap according to the article) that is single phase which is 120V. In India and many countries single phase is 230V and 3 phase is 400V.

If you remember window ACs use below kind of plug, which is a 3 phase plug point.

That picture is of 3 pin plug not a three phase plug.

You cannot get 3 phase with just L1 and L2.

The US in many areas suck like 110v, NTSC color, sill using imperial standards etc.

Only people who have a electric heat pump/hot water heater or a electric Hob will have 240v connection in the US.
Since many in the US use gas for heating and cooking they won't have the 240v input.

In India the theoretical max you can get from a single phase 32A meter is about 7kw and upto 21kw in a three phase connection. But practically it depends on the wiring for individual houses and transformer size in the case of apartments. Then there is the sanctioned load which if you cross it often you will have to pay the penalty.

If one has a individual house, with enough roof /shade free ground space for solar you can get as high as 45kw of free solar power in single or three phase by using inverter in series and parallel combination, this way you can super charge in your home.

[Jeroen]

We are going a bit off topic here, with home electrical connection and what the USA has or doesn’t have. But still, I think it is an extremely important part of owning an EV. Both in terms of practicality (how fast can I charge) and the cost of having to potentially upgrade your electrical connection to a higher amp and or three phase connection.

On the USA: To the best of my knowledge there is no central records on what kind of home connections exist in the USA> This is part of their poor infrastructure and an immense fragmented power supply situation. Nobody has the total picture, many power companies have problems understanding what connections their.

The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) does not publish data on natural gas meters or water meters either. Smart water and electricity deployment is way below what is the norm in most western countries. They simply have not got a clue.

From my own experience; Our home in Kansas City was hooked up to three phase. I helped out with a charity that helps people who can’t afford with some basic home improvement/maintenance on their homes. In Kansas City this was almost allways black families and elderly people living East of Troost (Avenue) as it was known. We used to help people doing maintenance on their garden, painting, plumbing etc.

I actually did quite a lot of electrical work on many of these houses and apartments and not a single one had three phase. These were very simple 110VAC single phase connections, loaded to the gills of course. Which often caused dangerous situations.

So I think the claims from most homes having three phase, is a myth. It is probably more apposite to say that most white people and those with a half decent income live in homes that are likely to have three phases. The rest, which is actually a very large percentage of the USA population does with less. They are used to it, getting the short end of the stick on just about anything, so why should electricity be any different.

Also, these are not the folks that are very likely to be moving to EV anytime soon. They are the folks who drive around in a $500 banger, with the CEL permanently on.

Gut feeling: the have or have not three phase in the USA follows the usual segregation between the haves and the haves not. The haves tend to be on forums like ours.

Jeroen

[GutsyGibbon]

"Researchers found the rate of discontinuance was 18 percent for full-electric models and 20 percent for plug-in hybrids"
The US EV market has way too many horrible EVs and PHEVs. Like the Mitsubishi MiEV. The car itself is discontinued, making parts availability an issue. Then the drop in range is huge - as there was no thermal protection for the battery pack. I had seen a 3 yr old MiEV for sale that had less than 30 miles range. I don't think anyone would want such a car even when its free. Same deal with first gen Leaf, Fiat 500E, Honda Clarity, Smart EQ, & Kia Soul. After 3 years these are unusable cars for most people - irrespective of the ability to charge at home, the lack of super charger only makes it worse.

Then there are other seemingly popular cars that are PHEV, just to get on the HOV lane, and tax credits. Like the Prius Prime and the big German brands. The electric range is ridiculous, and you are often carrying around the dead weight of the battery and electrical parts. This is much more heavier than the regular Prius hybrid. Most Prius Prime users I know ditch the car and move over to a Model 3, of if they cant afford one, they go back to an ICE. This is very understandable.

None of these factors actually apply to the Model 3. I know people who live in close proximity to a V3 super charger, and charging facility at work place, who are happy owners who live in apartments. I have gotten 100+miles of range in 10 minutes. V3 claims 1000miles per hour charge speed.

[carthick1000]

I am actually very glad that 4 out of 5 still would like to stick to electric cars inspite of all the shortcomings with supply voltage and charging infrastructure in USA.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Gut feeling: the have or have not three phase in the USA follows the usual segregation between the haves and the haves not. The haves tend to be on forums like ours.

Can't agree more. Interesting observations about USA's power infrastructure.

Originally Posted by GTO

As an aside, I am currently renovating my driveways and got 3 EV charging points installed for my own (future) EVs and all the media cars coming my way.

Would be glad to see a post or thread on the choice and installation of EV charging points.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Both in terms of practicality (how fast can I charge) and the cost of having to potentially upgrade your electrical connection to a higher amp and or three phase connection

I can't speak for other parts of the world. In India, this is quite easy to do. I'd say electrical companies or providers are more than happy to upgrade your line to three phase, higher rating for a marginal fee. My father did this more for power stability and the ability to switch phase if one were to fail or go down. This happened quite frequently. At the time the load demanded was not much but he insisted on 3 phase connection and it probably was the first house in the area to ask for one. 20 years on, running three air conditioners all day is possible without the lights going dim. I imagine an EV being charged at warp speed will demand a similar if not higher load.

[nandrive]

If Ev's become affordable, I strongly believe that they will be super hit in rural areas. Many would charge their EVs free of charge, it's impossible to stop the theft. 3 phase power is already supplied free of cost for agriculture, can not stop the misuse. Governments will have hell of a task to generate all the needed electricity. No one will ever go back to IC engines again.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

I can't speak for other parts of the world. In India, this is quite easy to do. .

Obviously, it varies country to country what kind of connections are available to you and the cost. This is what we have on offer in my parts of the Netherlands, sorry all in Dutch, but you get the gist, Each type of connection comes with a different fixed cost per month.



Currently we have a three phase 35A connection. I am having it downgraded to a three phase 25A.

The one off cost for the downgrade is Euro 250 (INR 22500). On an annual base I will save me about Euro 1000 (INR 89000) in fixed cost!!!

I don’t need a 35A connection. I never knew I had a 35A connection until I started looking into my electricity bill recently. I had not realised it made that big a difference. The previous owner had an elevator installed years ago and it probably required the 35A. But I can ran all our appliances, including cooker and my compressor and still not max out on 25A.

But if I would go the EV way I most likely would have to get back to 35A to get a decent rate of charge. The Euro 1000 in fixed cost is never taken into account in any of the cost calculation or calculators I have seen. To put Euro 1000 in conext, that is about 600 liters of Euro 95 petrol. On our little Ford Fiesta that is 9000 km range!

Jeroen

[vamsi.vadrevu]

Originally Posted by veedub89

For India, I have mentioned this before and firmly believe that we are about 10 years off from adopting electric cars or even considering them to be honest.
If the government really is serious about switching over to electric then they must also consider the load of charging these vehicles and the impact it will have on our current distribution grid.

Indeed. It has been 3 years since they announced many FAME schemes and promises of setting up charging infrastructure. So far, not one single EESL charging stations has been set up in Hyderabad. Infrastructure is the one thing that can't be done without Government's help. And the Government is dragging its feet on this.

If the government was really serious about EV promotion, they'd take a leaf out of Norway or China's playbook. The sheer number of incentives and benefits to owning an EV in these countries is astounding!

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

The one off cost for the downgrade is Euro 250 (INR 22500). On an annual base I will save me about Euro 1000 (INR 89000) in fixed cost!!!

I think for the first year you save 1000EUR (250EUR downgrade + ~750EUR difference between 3x25A and 3x35A). From 2nd year onwards, ~750EUR per year (~6750kms on your Fiesta).



But still very valid point as most online calculators don't take these costs into consideration. Also the cost of the charging point + installation is also missed in some calculators. Btw, I know friends and collegues who use a 3x25A for home along with solar panels and EV charger (eg. Tesla wall connector needs 3X16A). 3X35A is not needed for everyone, I guess.

[Raghu M]

I am not a fan of EVs. Nor do I think they will make huge inroads in the next 10 years. The range and the charging problem (duration and set up) are huge let downs. I think the people who are switching back to fossil fuels are the ones who did not do their homework well. All said and done, let's agree to the fact that EVs work fine for city commute and occasional outstation trips or some airport runs but they are not tourers. They will not be the first option for that long outstation trip as the planning gets too tedious. You need to charge, look for charging ports en route, plan your breaks (long ones) and in the midst lose out on enjoying the trip because you can't take detours or be hard on the throttle. I saw a vlog on YouTube where two brothers took their Nexon out from Pune to Goa, they had to switch off their AC during the last 80 kms just because they doubted the range of the car. Also, they had to wait in line to charge their car at one break point. They had planned a good 45 mins lunch break but the plan was ruined because there was another car that was getting charged. Now, if I were travelling with my family and I had to do that in this heat, I would rather travel by bus or train than in an EV.