[RGK]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

EV batteries are large and are spread all across the bottom of the vehicles. They can’t be removed without stripping the car and spending hours if not days. They are not tiny like 12v car batteries. Hence swapping is not possible. Only two wheeler and some three wheeler batteries can be swapped.

Originally Posted by antz.bin

Swappable batteries are a pipe dream.

This link gives a different picture.

https://driving.ca/features/feature-...-future-of-evs

[sreenivass]

This not-standard (business) was the case for mobiles too when we look back. It did not surprise me when every (mostly) manufacturer moved to USB charging over time.

I wish and hope the same thing happens here too. As more manufacturers adapt, the costs should come down gradually because of mass production. There should have already been an alliance or association of EVs, doesn't it exist?

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by RGK

This link gives a different picture.

https://driving.ca/features/feature-...-future-of-evs

If you would fully read the very article you are quoting, it actually argues that battery swapping is not possible.

[sreenivass]

Some of the arguments in this are about climate conditions like in Canada and business situations. I'd trust technology to overcome these challenges over time and make it possible. Not that the vehicles have one huge single cell battery. There are ways to make multi-cell smaller batteries with swapping in mind.

Even better would be that, EV manufacturers get away from owning batteries and make open battery engines. All they need to specify is KWh and physical battery bay dimensions.

[RGK]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

If you would fully read the very article you are quoting, it actually argues that battery swapping is not possible.

The NIO website shows it can be done. Caranddriver.com has highlighted this. "Nio's battery-swapping technology has been available since 2014, and as of June 2020, the company had completed 500,000 battery swaps."

NB: One of my friends is looking for an EV in the USA and he was explaining about Chinese cars that come with battery swapping facilities. So I raised this one in the thread.

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by sreenivass

Some of the arguments in this are about climate conditions like in Canada and business situations. I'd trust technology to overcome these challenges over time and make it possible. Not that the vehicles have one huge single cell battery. There are ways to make multi-cell smaller batteries with swapping in mind.

Even better would be that, EV manufacturers get away from owning batteries and make open battery engines. All they need to specify is KWh and physical battery bay dimensions.

Originally Posted by RGK

The NIO website shows it can be done. Caranddriver.com has highlighted this. "Nio's battery-swapping technology has been available since 2014, and as of June 2020, the company had completed 500,000 battery swaps."

NB: One of my friends is looking for an EV in the USA and he was explaining about Chinese cars that come with battery swapping facilities. So I raised this one in the thread.

Once again, please fully ready your own article. It provides various detailed reasons as to why this is not likely to succeed. Only one company has done it at a small scale and for taxi drivers confined to a small area. The 500,000 swaps sounds like a lot but it is over many years. One single taxi can swap it 1000 times per year and a fleet of 100 taxis could swap them 500,000 times in 5 years. There is no way every car company would give away their proprietary technology and adopt the Niro standard as expected by that company. In addition, building a charging station is much easier and cheaper than this kind of infrastructure. If there are two such swap machines and it takes say 10 minutes per car and there are 10 cars lined up, we are talking about an hour if all goes well. In the same amount of time you can charge their batteries at a charger bank which is easier, cheaper to install and can service any kind of vehicle whereas this works only on one company’s vehicles. In addition, if I have a new and well cared for battery, I wouldn’t want to swap it with some unknown, possibly older and worse performing battery.

[Ford_Prefect]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

It depends entirely on the usage pattern, doesn't it? If your typical daily commute is about 50km, most modern EVs would need about 10-15kW to cover the distance. So overnight one needs to charge only this amount to get back to 100%. If one charges for 10h overnight, even a 1.8kW charging point would usually suffice (assuming no possibility to charge at office).

If your daily commute is so long that you need to fully recharge the EV every night, then you are probably better off with an ICE car.

I guess people conveniently forget this part and lump all EVs together.

Most of the average car's time is spent sitting and waiting for the next drive. I think I am among the average person and have a two hour round-trip commute each week-day and maybe two hours of use each day on weekends. I am able to easily top-up the charge at home when the car is parked there.

If you are one of those users that takes 500km road trips every weekend and then decide to switch back to an ICE vehicle, then clearly those people did not do their homework. If one has a use case that is not satisfied by their current vehicle (EV), then do what we all do - rent a specific vehicle (ICE) when required.

I think the bigger problem to EV adoption is that a lot people do not have a dedicated garage to park and charge their cars at home.

[kris_t]

As pointed out, that study may be a bit old. However a number of issues remain as far as India is concerned:

1. The electricity rules at present do not permit sub-metering ie you need to take the power from your existing connection. Now in an independent villa or bungalow, you can easily install a charger in your porch or garage. But in an apartment block, you cannot run a cable from your flat down to your parking slot. The society cannot lay cables centrally unless all owners agree to share the electricity costs equally and obviously that won't happen. You can't have individual meters at your parking slots as that would be sub metering, which isn't permitted.

2. Similarly in your office parking.

3. Hence, if the Govt wants to promote EVs in India, some changes need to be made in the Electricity Act, to enable societies to enable users to pay only for what they use.

4. The other issue that doesn't seem to be getting addressed is, what do we do with all the used batteries when EVs become popular? We are likely to have mountains of used batteries on our hands which will create another environmental problem.

5. IMHO, EV Two-Wheelers in India are a great idea in cities, as they bring down the air and noise pollution and could possibly reduce the number of road accidents also being somewhat slower than the petrol bikes.

My two bit worth.
Cheers

[NG_EV]

Originally Posted by kris_t

4. The other issue that doesn't seem to be getting addressed is, what do we do with all the used batteries when EVs become popular? We are likely to have mountains of used batteries on our hands which will create another environmental problem.

The used batteries have multiple uses depending upon the degradation:

1. Can be used in power storage for renewable energy sources
2. Can be used to swap with a much worse battery in an otherwise good car.

Link for a video with possible use of old batteries

https://youtu.be/C4nS_tSQiVQ

Now coming to the study, as the published one is behind a paywall, I was able to access the pre-print version of the article. Not sure if I can post the link here. But few important points to note from the article-

1. First and foremost, though the discontinuation rate is approximately 20%, the people who retained ownership is also approximately 80%. This shows that the way you format a headline, directs the public perception and thus the debate around it in that direction.
2. Maximum discontinuation is for brands other than Tesla, their EVs were not so great during the time period of the study.
3. If we look at the data points collected, most of the users (even who discontinued) were extremely satisfied by safety, comfort, performance, purchase price, reliability, cost of refuel/recharge and, environmental impacts. For the last two, the percentage was as high as 70%.
4. The real issues here were driving range and convenience of charging (which were not very good for earlier EVs).
5. Majority of people had no access to DC fast chargers. The number of people who had no access to public charging (Level 1, 2 and DC fast combined) is also very high at about 63% for people who discontinued and 59% for people who continued ownership. The numbers may seem odd being high for both groups but people with access to Level 2 charging was higher in continued ownership group (50% vs 29%). This data shows that if we want more EV adoption, the infrastructure needs to be in place. The charging network has to be there to give confidence to even those who are reluctant today and have range anxiety. Its not a chicken or egg situation. The infrastructure comes first if the goal of wider EV adoption is to be achieved.
6. Another important point is the sample size of the survey. From the initial sample size of 14128, the final number who took the survey was 4167. This is quite a small number if the vehicle market is viewed as a whole.

I have also attached data in tabular form taken from the study.

[kris_t]

Dear NG_EV,
Thanks for sending the video. I agree that there are possibilities for using used batteries. However, in my view the re-use of old batteries must also follow as a policy along with the roll out of EVs. A system needs to be put in place wherein when a car owner needs a new battery, he should either deposit the old battery with the dealer who would be required to send it to a defined agency from where the used batteries are assigned to a recycling purpose, or deposit the battery directly with the recycling agency.
The trouble is, we like to roll out the new innovation / invention without thinking about the downstream effects. A clear thing through is required to put an ecosystem in place. Unless a policy and implementation plan is made right away, it'll become something of a tail chase. As I said in my original post, even one year down the line, there appear to be no clear rules under the Electricity Act to enable housing societies to install charging points in each parking slot and charge for the electric units consumed.
Regards

[landcruiser123]

Once bitten, Twice shy?

How will these people who returned their EVs in 2020 behave when they buy a car 5-10 years from now when EVs (and supporting infrastructure) will (hopefully) be much better?