[Durango Dude]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

This is nonsense, no need to explain in every EV thread.
Attachment 2310630

Fossil fuel used in India for power generation is to the tune of 59.1% and rest is Non Fossil Fuel sources of power generation 40.9%.

https://powermin.gov.in/en/content/p...ance-all-india

Please share sources or it never happened.

I was chatting with an acquaintance in Hamburg, Germany who had recently bought a Smart for 2 EV. Total cost was E 27000, Govt and car company give a rebate of E 6000 (Govt) and E 3000 (car company) He got E 5000 for selling his old car and had to pay E 13000 for the Smart for 2 EV. He needs to show the supplier has a clean energy source = Non Fossil source of electric generation to charge the car, if not the E 9000 rebate given by Govt and Car company will be taken back with a penalty added, he said. May be you check on the net the veracity of what he has said, I didn't have any doubts taking him on his word..

[Durango Dude]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Have you driven an EV? The lower center of gravity and instant torque makes it an all together different experience that ICE simply cannot match. This has nothing to do with the steering!

I haven't driven an EV as I'm not inclined to buy one, neither have I driven a Harrier but have heard from reviews and videos it can be a handful due to the heavy hydraulic power steering. The point I'm trying to make is that if you don't use "fossil Fuel" it's okay but what if your Electricity producer uses the same fossil fuel to produce the electricity that you use to charge the car you're okay with it??I'm also not adding the driving pleasure of an EV in the equation: point of owning an EV is to reduce carbon foot print but if your electricity supplier is increasing the carbon foot print by using the same fossil resources how's that okay?? Our Govt does everything by reverse first they'll bring in and encourage EV's but if their power generation depends on fossil resources then how is that okay? Can anyone in India choose a clean resource electricity supplier as they do in the first world then the whole 'bunkum' of saving the environment is hogwash.

[Jattitude]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

.

You seem to be wishing for 100% clean energy or nothing. That might happen in an ideal world, but that’s not how the real world works. The product mix of energy has to evolve in a way so as to make life more sustainable. As adoption of renewable sources of energy increases, so will the research and development in this field. You can’t assume that these will remain constant over time.

Thankfully there are plenty of optimistic people in the world to more than balance pessimism.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

I haven't driven an EV as I'm not inclined to buy one, neither have I driven a Harrier but have heard from reviews and videos it can be a handful due to the heavy hydraulic power steering.

So you haven't driven either. I think you're wrong and I'd politely suggest it's better to experience both of them first hand than simply play with assumptions.

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

The point I'm trying to make is that if you don't use ".......

And there's more than enough evidence to prove the rant wrong. Nonetheless I don't think the test drive review thread is the right one to discuss electricity generation and govt. policies. There are relevant threads where arguments have been made on both sides in the Electric cars section.

[adityadeva]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

I think we will pollute more by using EV's

Not only in India, but across the globe, EVs are much much cleaner while comparing the oil burners from the start to stop. Ofcourse, battery does contributes to pollution, but are nowhere near fossil fuels when pollution itself is considered.

https://youtu.be/1oVrIHcdxjA

[DarthVeda]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

I think we will pollute more by using EV's in India as 75% of the electricity production in India is Thermal or Coal Based go figure how polluting that can be!! In Germany you need to use a clean source of electricity supplier like solar or hyrdolectric to charge your car or the subsidy given is taken back with a penalty...

You surely have an agenda against EV. Just clarifying for others, even with Coal generated electricity, it is less polluting than burning diesel or petrol. Just remember, fuel doesn't magically teleport without pollution from source (oil fields) to target (fuel pump). Where as electricity travels in an instant and doesn't cause pollution.

FYI, Karnataka has 60% electricity with renewables and it will increase. BTW, any one who is concerned with pollution can easily opt to generate by Solar at home, let's see if they can do with Petrol or diesel?

[Nikhil Beke]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

The point I'm trying to make is that if you don't use "fossil Fuel" it's okay but what if your Electricity producer uses the same fossil fuel to produce the electricity that you use to charge the car you're okay with it??

Yes, indeed, and this is why: https://www.forbes.com/sites/enrique...ilpipe-theory/

[bhargavpaleja]

I have created an excel model to compare the TCO of an EV with an ICE car. I have taken into consideration various parameters like insurance (higher for an EV), maintenance, tyre changes at 5 years, fuel cost with inflation, etc.

I have also taken effective rate of interest on EV loan as 5% in the model as deductions is allowed on interest under section 80EEB as discussed on this thread earlier. Based on my model purchasing an EV worth 21L is equivalent to purchasing an ICE car worth 14.7L. If the ICE car is any costlier than that it makes sense to purchase an EV from purely monetary perspective.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Feel free to create a copy of this sheet and play around with parameters that are in green cells.

[Jattitude]

Originally Posted by bhargavpaleja

I have created an excel model to compare the TCO of an EV with an ICE car.

Feel free to create a copy of this sheet and play around with parameters that are in green cells.

As an EV owner, I would like to point out a few fallacies in your assumptions above. In my opinion, the logic behind the sheet is flawed.

(1) The kms/month considered by you is very low. Someone with a run of just 700 kms/ month should not be investing in an EV from a point of view of economics. This one variable has loaded odds against an EV. I have a minimum daily run on 60 kms and hence a monthly run of 1440 kms. On an average, my EV does atleast 1700 kms a month. Please put in such high numbers and i'm certain that they will turn your analysis around and you will be running to buy an EV.

(2) The insurance cost of an EV is not high as compared to an ICE Car. I paid just 5-6k more than a Tigor AMT XZ+ petrol. This is owing to the price itself being high and not because it is an EV.

(3) My understanding of Section 80EEB is that the rebate on the interest is max. Rs. 1,50,000/- per year and not Rs. 1,50,000/- through the life cycle of the loan. I have checked with a CA and he has confirmed the same.

The above 3 should dramatically alter the analysis of your sheet.

[bhargavpaleja]

Originally Posted by Jattitude

As an EV owner, I would like to point out a few fallacies in your assumptions above. In my opinion, the logic behind the sheet is flawed.

(1) The kms/month considered by you is very low. Someone with a run of just 700 kms/ month should not be investing in an EV from a point of view of economics. This one variable has loaded odds against an EV. I have a minimum daily run on 60 kms and hence a monthly run of 1440 kms. On an average, my EV does atleast 1700 kms a month. Please put in such high numbers and i'm certain that they will turn your analysis around and you will be running to buy an EV.

(2) The insurance cost of an EV is not high as compared to an ICE Car. I paid just 5-6k more than a Tigor AMT XZ+ petrol. This is owing to the price itself being high and not because it is an EV.

(3) My understanding of Section 80EEB is that the rebate on the interest is max. Rs. 1,50,000/- per year and not Rs. 1,50,000/- through the life cycle of the loan. I have checked with a CA and he has confirmed the same.

The above 3 should dramatically alter the analysis of your sheet.

1. Even with assumption of 700 kms a month the model shows how buying an EV worth 21L is comparable to buying an ICE car worth 14.7L with 8 years horizon. If your running is more than that then it definitely tilts the decision in favour of EV further i.e. it might be comparable to buying an ICE car lesser than 14.7L. So I beg to differ that anyone driving for 700 kms a month should not invest in EV until and unless you do find a car that is worth less than 14.7L and meets all your criteria.

2. I did my comparison based on Insurance quotes given by dealers for top end models of Skoda Kushaq, MG Astor and Tata Nexon EV Max. There is definitely dealership commission in those quotes but it did feel like the insurance premiums were tad bit higher not just because of higher value of the car. But I do agree I didn't have any other comparison other than dealer quotes.

3. I have assumed interest deductions per year and that is why the effective rate of interest is assumed as 5% for entire tenure of loan. Assuming the normal rate of interest is 7.45% then taking deductions every year on interest component makes your effective rate around 5%.

[Jattitude]

Originally Posted by bhargavpaleja

1. So I beg to differ that anyone driving for 700 kms a month should not invest in EV until and unless you do find a car that is worth less than 14.7L and meets all your criteria.

2. But I do agree I didn't have any other comparison other than dealer quotes.

3. makes your effective rate around 5%.

1. Your criteria is the value benefit from an economics point of view. A good model here should depict the ideal scenario for EV ownership. An individual doing even 100 kms a months can buy an EV, but for such an individual, priorities are different. My comment is based on your assumption of deriving value through your investment. Such a model requires better numbers to be taken as a constant.

2. Insurance figures quoted on online websites are not real world figures. The pricing is similar to ICE cars in that price range.

3. If i’m getting 100% of my interest paid as a tax rebate, then how does you come to the 5% figure. Could you please elaborate?

[bhargavpaleja]

Originally Posted by Jattitude

1. Your criteria is the value benefit from an economics point of view. My comment is based on your assumption of deriving value through your investment. Such a model requires better numbers to be taken as a constant.

2. Insurance figures quoted on online websites are not real world figures. The pricing is similar to ICE cars in that price range.

3. If i’m getting 100% of my interest paid as a tax rebate, then how does you come to the 5% figure. Could you please elaborate?

1. This model is just to show benefit from monetary perspective. Every individual have different criteria for their vehicle of choice. I am trying to give an economic perspective of the decision one can make. Let's say if you decide to buy a Skoda Kushaq at 19L on road price then according to the model it is going to cost you 11L more in 8 years with 700 kms a month.

2. Yes agreed, I have just inferred higher cost based on dealership quotes and it is also hearsay based on what I have read even on this portal.

3. You get income tax deduction on the interest you pay and not as rebate. So if you are paying say 1.5L as interest per year than the deduction of that amount gives you benefit of 45k (assuming 30% tax bracket). You are still paying 1.05L effective interest on the loan. So that makes the effective interest rate as roughly 30% lesser than actual rate (again assuming 30% tax bracket).
Quoting from income tax website:

Deduction in respect of purchase of electric vehicle.
80EEB. (1) In computing the total income of an assessee, being an individual, there shall be deducted, in accordance with and subject to the provisions of this section, interest payable on loan taken by him from any financial institution for the purpose of purchase of an electric vehicle.

Link

[prateekchanana]

Originally Posted by Jattitude

1. Your criteria is the value benefit from an economics point of view.

3. If i’m getting 100% of my interest paid as a tax rebate, then how does you come to the 5% figure. Could you please elaborate?

I think the maintenance cost will also work out to be much cheaper as compared to ICE.

Regarding the tax point even if you get the entire tax as rebate, you are still paying the interest which will be close to 7-7.5%. Now if you are in the 30% bracket the rebate means you don’t have to pay 30% tax on that interest amount (still have to pay the interest). Which means you are paying 30% less interest on the ROI (which you otherwise would’ve paid as tax) which will make it net around 5%.

[ASP_73]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

I think we will pollute more by using EV's in India as 75% of the electricity production in India is Thermal or Coal Based go figure how polluting that can be!!

The total electricity generation capacity added in India in FY21-22 is 16GW, out of which 12GW is renewable. These figures tell a different story, and isn't it an encouraging situation to adopt more and more EVs ?

[Chrome6Boy]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

I think we will pollute more by using EV's in India as 75% of the electricity production in India is Thermal or Coal Based go figure how polluting that can be!! In Germany you need to use a clean source of electricity supplier like solar or hyrdolectric to charge your car or the subsidy given is taken back with a penalty...


https://coal.nic.in/en/major-statist...ty%20Authority.

The 75% number is going to go down in future for sure because the installed capacity of renewable energy is increasing and so are the investments in renewable energy. Not to mention the pollution from the thermal and coal plants will be in industrial areas and not in the middle of the cities which bear the brunt of air pollution due to motor traffic.