[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Facts are stubborn, but Statistics is more pliable.

Sorry, but this quote has been used far too often as an argument against everything from climate change to vaccines to COVID. Statistics are (somewhat) pliable but are a more reliable indicator than 'facts' (as per the definition of facts insinuated by the quote) because 'facts' change based on how a person/community perceives something. When you make this distinction, 'facts' here just means perception. Ideally, a fact should be something that has been statistically proven.

Good question to ask would be, at what age ICE catches fire as compared to the EV's age.

That's a good question. But then again, statistics is the only way to test for this (multivariate statistics).

Also we know the reason for the ICE to catch fire, which in general will point finger towards poor maintenance (Human Error) or a design error which will eventually call for recalls in time. However, for EV's its the fear of unknown and such incidences that too from the reputed maker, shake the foundation.

Two contradicting statements. Why would ICEs catching fire not shake the foundation of a reputed brand? Why would EVs catching fire not be due to poor maintenance (Human Error) or a design error that will eventually call for recalls in time?

We are giving ICEs the benefit of the doubt but not EVs. Shouldn't the goalpost be the same for both? The reason offcourse, is the fear of the unknown as you said but that is something related to human psychology, can't blame EVs here.

Afterall, when people moved from horses to cars, your horse was always less likely to catch fire than a car

[AVIS]

Originally Posted by Raghuwire

Fire can be caused by multiple reasons and not just nail penetration. Blade batteries use LFP chemistry which is inherently safer and have higher thermal runaway temperatures. High performance, high density applications typically use NMC chemistry.

A correction - Hyundai Kona EV uses a Lithium-ion Polymer battery.

[UNSC117]

Originally Posted by FailedXUVEngine

Hybrid Engines (Hydrogen fuel) would be the future not EVs .

The main reason people buy EVs in India are due to the rising fuel costs. Hydrogen fuel is almost the same price as petrol.


The main reason people disregard EVs in India are due to lack of availability of chargers. It's much easier to setup a charging station than a hydrogen filling one. Power lines already exist. For Hydrogen fuel stations we'll need trucks moving hydrogen fuel.

[DarthVeda]

Originally Posted by FailedXUVEngine

Hybrid Engines (Hydrogen fuel) would be the future not EVs .

Teleportation would be the future but we are not there yet

Hydrogen was explored by Toyota and Honda, I remember seeing Clarkson testing Honda clarity and saying this is the future etc. It failed miserably, California had the highest number of Hydrogen filling station and it did not kick off, There were many problems with Hydrogen including the production, transport and storage, but the other problem which exists is that the filling station needs to pressure the hydrogen fuel, which takes 30 minutes or so.

EV is the present and not the future, the future looks bright because of the research in battery chemistry and development, look where we have come from in the mobile space itself, and you will realize the leaps.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by UNSC117

The main reason people buy EVs in India are due to the rising fuel costs. Hydrogen fuel is almost the same price as petrol.

Same would be an understatement. USA has low fuel taxes yet H2 costs $36/kg which comes to $216 for full tank on Mirai with 600km range

That’s almost ₹20,000 for full tank in direct conversion and ₹33/km

Literally flights cost cheaper. And you can get same 600km range in most ev’s which cost in same segment as Mirai like non-plaid S, while retaining 750L boot vs the measly 320L and much better performance than Mirai

Even the XUV400 is quicker to 100 than Mirai and has more boot space. 320L boot makes long trips moot even if you have 600km and 5min refill

[PreludeSH]

If you look at an ICE car and EV, other than drive train there is a lot of commonality. In ICE cars, the drive train itself doesn't self ignite like in EVs. Its mostly the electrical circuits associated with other components which are common to EVs also.

When we say ICE cars have more issues, hope its percentage wise and not just numbers !

I believe we will have EVs that are same safety wise as ICE cars regarding fire issues. Some might think they are already better

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by AVIS

A correction - Hyundai Kona EV uses a Lithium-ion Polymer battery

How about the Ioniq5 and the Kia EV6? Considering they are from the same house.

[darkchild82]

Originally Posted by ohaak

I don't understand why manufacturers don't license and use the blade technology for batteries from BYD. Those pass the nail puncture test without resulting in a fire. Tesla uses these for cars manufactured in Berlin Giga factory. https://www.hotcars.com/byds-blade-b...ium-ion-packs/

And yet, this BYD Seal which uses the Blade batteries, went up in flames upon self-combustion last year. So did a BYD Han.



https://www.wapcar.my/news/byds-blad...appening-71386

[newenergy]

Looks like Tesla is buying equipment from CATL to bring the LFP battery supply chain to the US.

Link: https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...er-2024-01-31/

[aim120]

Originally Posted by darkchild82

And yet, this BYD Seal which uses the Blade batteries, went up in flames upon self-combustion last year. So did a BYD Han.

Attachment 2567715

https://www.wapcar.my/news/byds-blad...appening-71386

You can make a ICE car with a 12v lead acid battery to catch fire too. The battery themselves are not to blame but a short circuit or insulation cut on a wire leading to short circuit can cause a Arc which is hot enough to melt steel. So any flammable material in the car will catch fire. The blade battery itself will not cause a fire neither does its outer aluminium shell act as a flammable material.

[veedub89]

Originally Posted by electric_eel

I am assuming that you are being sarcastic. For otherwise there is study that shows ICE cars are more likely to catch fire than BEVs and Hybrids (petrol) are worse than ICEs (not by a small factor by the way).

While I agree with you that hydrogen infrastructure is nowhere close to where it needs to be to have mass scale adoption of hydrogen vehicles, I still believe hydrogen cars are the future.

Hydrogen generators have been in use in multiple testing laboratories for decades now. H2 is used as a carrier gas and is connected to various testing equipment such as LCMSs and GCs. The hydrogen required is generated inside the lab via a generator. Surely, you will appreciate that this as close to a "closed door environment" as it can get.

While hydrogen is combustible and explosive, the concentration of hydrogen required in a room for the gas to ignite remains fairly high. These generators are equipped with various safety switches which detect not only internal leakages but external leakages as well and stop hydrogen flow if something abnormal is detected. So the technology to make hydrogen generation and storage does exist. It will obviously have to be evolved to make it suitable for a car or a fuel station.

[VSEV85]

I too believe hydrogen is the future. BEV are a temporary solution for pollution. Right now the tech for safe hydrogen cars running in big numbers is not there. Safety is a bigger concern in hydrogen cars. I'm sure it will be sorted out in the long run. But right now, for may be 10-20 years, Its going to be BEV.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by veedub89

While hydrogen is combustible and explosive, the concentration of hydrogen required in a room for the gas to ignite remains fairly high. These generators are equipped with various safety switches which detect not only internal leakages but external leakages as well and stop hydrogen flow if something abnormal is detected. So the technology to make hydrogen generation and storage does exist. It will obviously have to be evolved to make it suitable for a car or a fuel station.

Sensors fail over time, it only takes 4% of room to be filled with hydrogen to make the room flammable, with chances of fire upgraded to explosion with every percentage after 4%.

Also the storage tanks as they get old fail. A CNG tank for example is filled at 3000psi, which is 20 times higher then your air compressor tank used to fill air in tires. A Hydrogen tank is close to 10000psi pressure.

When these tanks like CNG fail they have enough force to slice through the car or a brick wall like a tank shell. A Hydrogen tank is even more dangerous due to more pressure.
Below link CNG tank failing.
https://twitter.com/InternetH0F/stat...697960206?s=20

[veedub89]

Originally Posted by aim120

Sensors fail over time, it only takes 4% of room to be filled with hydrogen to make the room flammable, with chances of fire upgraded to explosion with every percentage after 4%.

A sensor failing can happen anywhere, right? It could even happen in a ICE car. Tata Nanos were notorious for catching on fire.

Same goes for pressure vessels or tanks.

Component failure is not specific to a particular technology is all I am saying.

Yes hydrogen is difficult to handle as of now, but it will get better over time.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by VSEV85

I too believe hydrogen is the future. BEV are a temporary solution for pollution. Right now the tech for safe hydrogen cars running in big numbers is not there. Safety is a bigger concern in hydrogen cars. I'm sure it will be sorted out in the long run. But right now, for may be 10-20 years, Its going to be BEV.

Let's leave safety and infrastructure challenges aside. The cost of refuelling with H2 costs 36$/kg.

1kg of H2 has 40kwh of energy, to produce 1kg green H2 needs 50kwh of renewable electricity with 80% electrolyzer effeciency. Even at 100% effeciency we need 40kwh renewable electricity.

Then, fuel cell wastes 50% of the energy, so only usable is 20kwh from that 50kwh energy feed.

Why not simply use the 50kwh energy in a BEV directly. There is no way H2 running costs will be less than BEV running costs.

Hydrogen tech may advance in next 10-20 years, but still lags far behind EV tech, as batteries are not sitting ducks, there is more research going into batteries than H2.

Now if we start adding numerous H2 infra problems, it is fair to say H2 is dead, only Toyota and few oil companies talk about H2 just to discredit EVs.