[newenergy]

Recently CATL also launched LFP cells which can be charged at a much faster rate.

Link: https://www.reuters.com/technology/c...ar-2023-08-16/

I'm glad Mahindra decided to use LFP cells from BYD. BE05 looks hot.

Also, let's not jump to any conclusions until the proper investigation is done.

[alok9345]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

The reason for ICE's to catch fire is also "most" of the time electrical, either some short circuit or overloaded fuse gone bust, whatever may be the reason. I haven't seen an ICE car under fire due to the engine it carry or the fuel type.

People like me, do have geniune apprehensions regarding EV's.

Originally Posted by Quicksilver85

Such news are what is NOT confidence inspiring to aspiring customers. Lets face it, EV as a technology is still in its nascent stage. The ICE on the other hand has decades and decades of OEM experience and they have perfected the art of producing reliable models. Even then we see issues related to transmission (DQ200), accelerator/brakes (Toyota in US), even fires sometimes in the ICE models too.

That's not true. ICE can catch fire also due to a fuel leak, which could be a similar situation as a thermal runaway in BEVs. BEVs simply get too much attention for all incidents compared to ICE.

Infact, there are, on an average, lesser lives lost in BEV accidents, compared to ICE. ICE vehicles do spontaneously combust as well. Here's a ICE Volvo XC90 (on of the world's safest vehicles) whose 5L+ vehicles were recalled - https://www.team-bhp.com/news/volvo-...l-catches-fire and another one last year (potentially due to the same problem?) - https://www.cartoq.com/moving-volvo-...ing-car-video/

I'm only trying to make the point that ICE vehicles are not not prone to random combustion events. Its just that they don't get equal attention as media isn't interested (so common, huh?).

Originally Posted by NomadSK

By the way for those who are already Driving EV's, How the car insurance works for EV's in case of such scenarios of battery thermal runaway or failure or fire ?

On the insurance piece, it works exactly the same way as in an ICE car. this is a total loss case, with barely any recouperation maybe. I am not sure if OEMs compensate for this loss to insurance companies from their warranty pool.

Originally Posted by Redex

Yet another EV fire !!! I don't own a BEV and never will. What frightens me is the severity, intensity and speed of the fires. Diesel and petrol cars never burst into flames as rapidly as a BEV when being driven or just parked up.
It also worries me how easy it would be to get stuck inside with complete electronic failure. Petrol and diesel ICE cars give the occupant longer to get out in the event of a fire. Usually allowing sufficient time to smash a side window if the electronics don't work.
I will never travel in a BEV.
Right from the outset we have been misled by manufacturers. Battery life, range, charging times, service costs, reliability, tyre wear, service frequency etc etc. I don't trust BEVs, and I certainly wouldn't buy a BEV made in China, or a vehicle with a battery made in China.
Phones, toys, household items, 2 wheelers, cars, trucks, buses and boats with battery power have all caught fire. Even a battery prototype electric aircraft and train have caught fire.
The battery pack stores an enormous amount of energy that can all be released in a matter of seconds during a run away event and you can do nothing to stop it or put it out !!!
I think BEVs have been rushed onto the market without adequate time or effort being spent on safety of the battery pack.

BTW, all the ICE cars are increasingly controlled by computers as well, including the inbuilt central locking systems. Many a times occupants have, in past, been captured in the vehicles during a mishap - things which have increasingly improved and become better. BEV batteries have failsafe mechanisms that warn the occupants in time to take evasive actions, which cannot be said for a highly combustible imflamable liquid tank combined with a combustion engine (yes, I am exaggerating, but who isn't?)

I don't know who has lied to you about other things, but I am sure nobody is getting ARAI claimed mileage in ICE and same holds true for BEVs. Even ARAI is learning on better calculations for BEVs.

All battery electronics have caught fire, many of those made in China, yet, we continue to use them and even buy more and more of them, consciously, all the time. Goes on to show, outlier events do not define entire categories. Also, as someone else also mentioned, this particular Volvo, had much less to do with China. Maybe it would've been better off to have more to do with China, given, how solid their EV tech is and how vast their experience in BEVs is.

BEVs are far from rushed, just that India is getting a host of these now given the government push. We have had the Reva for decades and european, US and China have been using the BEVs for longer.

Originally Posted by Raghuwire

Few other chemistries are available, for example Log 9 a Bangalore based company is working with Lithium Titanate, but not at full commercial scale.

I have tried to make this as exhaustive as I could. If you see the above most fires have been concentrated in one type of chemistry. Teslas blowing up during a hurricane in the US (Florida?). Worldwide recalls for Kona EV, Ola scooter fires and now the Volvo C40 (one off case?) Ther than this, there are tens of thousands of forklifts and other material handling equipments across the nation have been using LFP from past few years.

The LTO chemistry from Log9 has even lower power density compared to LFP and are much more heavy - although allow much faster charging and discharging at 10C and are safer + have longer life.

While LFP is safer, it suffers from lower power density, making battery packs heavier and larger. Performance + space + longer range, in the usual size of the cars, is difficult with LFP, and therefore isn't used in more expensive vehicles, except CATL's blade battery which comes close to NMC in terms of power density. The modern BEVs come with sophisticated thermal management systems and can manage various conditions very well, however, mishaps happen - it can happen to anything!

[FailedXUVEngine]

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[nmn.070]

This is quite concerning. My fear would be that a number of times the vehicle is used by family and drivers who may not be very well versed with digital communication the car presents. With ICE cars, everybody seems to know standard operating procedure because of how many years we've lived with them. The speed of a thermal runway fire gives less time to respond and if I only have an older generation driver dropping my kids off to soccer practice, I'd be very worried. This too in a Volvo which I presumed to be the safest.

[electric_eel]

@ FailedXUVEngine:

I am assuming that you are being sarcastic. For otherwise there is study that shows ICE cars are more likely to catch fire than BEVs and Hybrids (petrol) are worse than ICEs (not by a small factor by the way).


As for proponents of Hydrogen ICE, either they have serious problems understanding the underlying science and tech or are deliberately misrepresenting facts. There is in no aspect a Hydrogen ICE car like BMW Hydrogen 7 that can make it a better choice.

1. Hydrogen is not like petrol that you can fill it in 5 min and go on with stuff.

2. Fueling stations need huge investments

3. Regarding fire safety, less said the better. BMW Hydrogen 7 keeps leaking hydrogen that is not safe to keep it parked in a closed space. Hydrogen after all is explosive. There are fundamental limitations in trying to keep hydrogen stored safely due to the very nature of the molecule (after all it is the smallest molecule and requires specially designed containers to contain them).

[alok9345]

Originally Posted by nmn.070

This is quite concerning. My fear would be that a number of times the vehicle is used by family and drivers who may not be very well versed with digital communication the car presents. With ICE cars, everybody seems to know standard operating procedure because of how many years we've lived with them. The speed of a thermal runway fire gives less time to respond and if I only have an older generation driver dropping my kids off to soccer practice, I'd be very worried. This too in a Volvo which I presumed to be the safest.

I guess that's the reason Hyundai has launched vernacular options in instrument cluster. Should percolate to other OEMs, if the need arises as such.

However, feel like, audio visual warnings are usually understood by many. Please see regulations around it for BEVs - https://morth.nic.in/sites/default/f...0AIS%20156.pdf

I would bet this is better than guessing by the smoke coming from the engine bay.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by FailedXUVEngine

Hybrid Engines (Hydrogen fuel) would be the future not EVs .

The passengers and crew of the Hindenberg would like to have a word Sir.

[sarathlal]

A Volvo having this incident appears more damaging to the EV perception at large.

At the same time, since its a Volvo, we are more likely to get an accurate root cause analysis of the incident and more importantly, Volvo themselves will put in all possible efforts to overcome the same in future. This in turn will help strengthen the safety aspects of this class of vehicles.

[Chrome6Boy]

Originally Posted by enj0y_ride

Last year, there was a fire incident with Nexon EV ( I guess parked vehicle ) and Tata Motors was supposed to share details post their investigation. Has anyone got any news on that?

This is a great question.

I suspect it is the fire that provides great click bait for the media but the eventual findings of the investigation are not reported in mainstream media except for the blanket "Unauthorised electrical accessories" which is a get out of jail free card for the manufacturers.

These fires must be investigated by a regulatory body and not the manufacturer themselves who have little motivation to tell people the truth.

[Prado]

Originally Posted by alok9345

Also, as someone else also mentioned, this particular Volvo, had much less to do with China. Maybe it would've been better off to have more to do with China, given, how solid their EV tech is and how vast their experience in BEVs is.

Well, the C40 battery pack seems to have been made in China. These are the pictures from the XC40 recharge pack of a car assembled in India, and both use the same 78 kWh battery pack. It has the NMC chemistry cells.

[Joe367]

Originally Posted by Chrome6Boy

This is a great question.

I suspect it is the fire that provides great click bait for the media but the eventual findings of the investigation are not reported in mainstream media except for the blanket "Unauthorised electrical accessories" which is a get out of jail free card for the manufacturers.

These fires must be investigated by a regulatory body and not the manufacturer themselves who have little motivation to tell people the truth.

Not just for manufacturers but also for the Police. I have seen police officers making such statements to media even before any scientific analysis.
Even with the tragic incident that happened in Kerala when an spresso caught fire- they initially blamed aftermarket fitments, later changed to bottle of petrol stored in the vehicle. I wonder if any progress was made on the case afterwards.

[wocanak]

Originally Posted by Raghuwire

LFP chemistry
...
MG ZS EV
...

PS: If I have erred by mistake, request members to correct my understanding.

Thanks for the list, I think the initial MG ZS EV was NMC (at least not LFP) and only the 2022 facelift switched to LFP.

As others pointed out more premium cars seem to use NMC, as this helps with range. Another reason could be these are all primarily sold in western countries where NMC does better in winter. Only a few like Tesla/BYD have LFP + head pump + battery conditioning to make it work in colder climates and others are yet to switch.

For the low volumes that they sell in India, it won't make economic sense to make LFP variant just for India.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The passengers and crew of the Hindenberg would like to have a word Sir.

Never understood the obsession with hydrogen for private car use when both the developmental status and the infrastructure for EVs are much more profound.

On the safety of EVs, aren't ICE cars more likely to catch fire statistically?

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

On the safety of EVs, aren't ICE cars more likely to catch fire statistically?

Facts are stubborn, but Statistics is more pliable. Good question to ask would be, at what age ICE catches fire as compared to the EV's age. Also we know the reason for the ICE to catch fire, which in general will point finger towards poor maintenance (Human Error) or a design error which will eventually call for recalls in time. However, for EV's its the fear of unknown and such incidences that too from the reputed maker, shake the foundation.

Also, the stats which come out of PRC are not to be trusted and are pretty skewed. I was talking to one Chinese native, he himself says, EV cars in China are termed as King of spontaneous combustion and he doesn’t want to sit on a crematorium seat while being alive. And when I see western big wigs as the major shareholders for the EV industry in China, I will have a serious concerns. They/media (Positive PR) supported by them won't like common people in general to see the real picture.

[whitewing]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Volvo Cars India's preliminary official statement on the matter;

I wonder what would be left of the car to investigate after an runaway battery fire? All plastics, ICs and wiring would have melted and burnt, I suppose whatever telemetry data that would be uploaded to Volvo would be all that can be investigated.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

On the safety of EVs, aren't ICE cars more likely to catch fire statistically?

The tesla stats are getting better by the year.
From 2012 – 2018, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 170 million miles traveled.
From 2012 – 2019, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 175 million miles traveled.
From 2012 – 2020, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 205 million miles traveled.
From 2012 – 2021, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 210 million miles traveled

On the other hand we have our own Okinowas and Ola breaking into a fire now and then.
Just goes to say that well designed and well manufactured battery goes a long way in making it safe.

That said, EV fires are much harder to contain.