[Prowler]

Originally Posted by carboy

- Your Internet Service Provider
- The websites you visit
- Indian Govt
- Chinese Govt
- US Govt
- Some one else you can specify in the replies

Please don't say all of the above - just reply with the one who you are most scared of possessing your data.

I am wary of everyone in the list. Let us see how they can access my data - at least in theory here:

Our ISP: Website address (URLs) Our ISP can see the domain names and specific URLs of the websites you visit. This is because the Domain Name System (DNS) queries, which translate human-readable domain names into IP addresses, usually pass through your ISP.
Connection Metadata: Your ISP can collect metadata about your internet connections, including the duration and frequency of your online sessions, the amount of data transferred, and the IP addresses of the websites you interact with.

Type of Internet Traffic: ISPs can distinguish between different types of internet traffic, such as streaming, file sharing, web browsing, and online gaming. They can analyze the traffic patterns to understand how you use your internet connection.


The Websites I visit: They know my public IP address and they know my location. Unless they have malicious intention, most sites I visit couldn't care less what I do. Not that they have altruistic motives alone, but the cost of expending server resources to obtain some additional information is not worth for most sites.


Indian Government: It may not have the resources like that of NSA of the US, but if it wants to know where you eat and what you order, it can obtain it through other means - coercive or otherwise.


Chinese Government :Every Chinese computer product - unless otherwise specified, will call home. My Sonoff Wifi Switches always tell their servers how many times I turn on my water heaters, ACs, lights and how much they consume. It might present a pattern of my usage to feed their AI. That might give an actionable idea of the typical Indian household living pattern.



US Government: It has ample resources to monitor every internet traffic and analyze them - if it needs. Uncle Sam wouldn't bother about anyone as long as they don't pose any viable threat.

[binand]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Our ISP: Website address (URLs)Our ISP can see the domain names and specific URLs of the websites you visit.
Connection Metadata: Your ISP can collect metadata about your internet connections

ISP seeing specific URLs is mostly not a concern these days because of the prevalence of TLS; for added protection you can activate HTTPS-only mode in your browser.

ISP seeing domain names is mitigated by switching over to DNS-over-TLS/DNS-over-HTTPS. Firefox has out-of-the-box support for the latter with Cloudflare as the provider. The risk that this simply swaps ISP with Cloudflare will be mitigated soon; tech to do this is being developed.

ISP accessing connection metadata can be prevented by using a reliable VPN service. I use NordVPN; again the same concern (this only replaces ISP with NordVPN) could be raised but has been addressed by the company and others.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I am wary of everyone in the list. Let us see how they can access my data - at least in theory here:

Question isn't about who can access your data. The base assumption in the question is if everyone in the world can access your data, who would you be most worried about doing something harmful to you using your data.

Originally Posted by binand

Yes, that's right. What I tried to say was - I have to either live like Alexander Selkirk or live with the understanding that I simply cannot expect privacy from my own government. Since the former is not a practical possibility, it will have to be the latter

You could atleast be upset & angry about it :-) which you don't seem to be. At the least. If more people are angry and upset about it, may be something can change (a small possibility but still)

[binand]

Originally Posted by carboy

You could atleast be upset & angry about it :-) which you don't seem to be.

To borrow a phrase from the law practitioners, the quoted part "assumes facts not in evidence". In my opinion it is also judgemental and somewhat of a non sequitur, if it is being based on the last four posts I made on this thread.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by carboy

Please don't say all of the above - just reply with the one who you are most scared of possessing your data.

I am worried about those who buy the meta data from the above parties for specific data mining.

I have explained the process before. No point repeating.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I am worried about those who buy the meta data from the above parties for specific data mining.

Question isn't about who can access or buy your data. The base assumption in the question is if everyone in the world can access your data, who would you be most worried about doing something harmful to you using your data.

[Samurai]

You want a specific person, how about the man with one red shoe?

If you don't ask the right question, don't expect answers. You are asking a question like "If you leave your cycle unlocked in public, whom are you most worried about stealing it."

I don't care who, it is a problem no matter who steals it. It is our lack of control over it that bothers most of us.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by Samurai

If you don't ask the right question, don't expect answers

I am not sure if I can explain it any further, but let me try one last time anyway & then move on. Let me also use a car analogy which may help because of the nature of the forum

My question is like if you were to lose control of your car would you prefer if you lose it in an empty road or in inner road with people walking or in a highway or in a road with both vehicles & people. Your answer is "It doesn't matter to me, I am upset that I lost control of the car in the first place" - which though technically correct may mean you haven't understood the question. Unless of course it actually doesn't matter to you where you crash your car - which may be true, I can't tell. Sometimes the question may be right, but asked to the wrong person. Which I can't really avoid when asking in a public forum

[binand]

Originally Posted by Samurai

If you don't ask the right question, don't expect answers. You are asking a question like "If you leave your cycle unlocked in public, whom are you most worried about stealing it."

I think the OP's question is better framed as "if you leave your cycle unlocked in public, where would you rather that be?" - which choices as: in front of police station, bus stand, prison, place of worship...

[carboy]

Originally Posted by binand

I think the OP's question is better framed as "if you leave your cycle unlocked in public, where would you rather that be?" - which choices as: in front of police station, bus stand, prison, place of worship...

Yes, 100%. My original framing of the question was extremely unclear. You probably were the only one who understood the original question before I clarified it. I think the question is a very valid one.

And your answer also hit the point I was trying to arrive at - that our own govt should be our #1 worry.

I don't care about Google or China or USA getting my data (though it may be valid for others to fear it). I don't care even if Google sell it to all & sundry as long it's not our Govt. Likewise I don't care about China or USA getting all my data as long as they don't give it to our Govt. USA & China have zero power over me, unlike our Govt. As an example, let's say I am a journalist who is critical of our establishment, I don't want the establishment to know how many bottles of liquor I purchase every month or if I searched for escorts on Google since they can use that to defame my credibility or even jail me.

[navin]

Originally Posted by carboy

I have a question here - who exactly do people want to protect their data from?

Originally Posted by Prowler

I am wary of everyone in the list.

Originally Posted by Samurai

I am worried about those who buy the meta data from the above parties for specific data mining.

Originally Posted by Samurai

"If you leave your cycle unlocked in public, whom are you most worried about stealing it."

Originally Posted by binand

I think the OP's question is better framed as "if you leave your cycle unlocked in public, where would you rather that be?" - which choices as: in front of police station, bus stand, prison, place of worship...

Originally Posted by carboy

I don't care about Google or China or USA getting my data...

Disclaimer: I do not understand the internet and am ignorant about a lot of technical things.

On the face of it (and this is what I understand about the internet), once you sign into the internet (Google, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Team-BHP, Jio, Netflix, Spotify, etc...) you surrender your right to privacy. If you want to enjoy the benefits that these services give you, you need to give up some degree of privacy.

For example, if I use Spotify to listen to music, I implicitly agree that Spotify and, by extension, everyone on the internet will know what music I listen to. If I do not want to share that information, I can stick to listening to albums and CDs, and no one will be the wiser (especially since in my specific case, most of my albums and CDs were purchased before the internet existed).

If Google has your data, expect it to be shared with the US Government (FBI, CIA, NSA, etc) and, by extension, with the Governments of the UK, Germany, France, and all Governments that agree to share data (I assume the Indian Government is also part of this network). If Jio has your data, expect it to be shared with everyone, including the Indian Government.

A couple of days ago, I asked a question to a fellow Moderator about why he and I see very different banner adverts on Team-BHP. He explained that the banner adverts are based on each of our specific search preferences on Google. So he sees banner adverts for car tyres while I get adverts for lingerie (I am weird).

So, to answer the question (in my opinion)

1. You can't protect your data unless you don't put it out there. For example, once your music and movie preferences are known, everyone will know it.
2. If you have nothing to hide, why worry so much? For example, the Government may know where I am banking, but I ain't doing anything wrong, so let them know.
3. I don't know if this helps, but if you really want to operate in secrecy, I am sure there are ways to do this. There is something called the Dark Web with browsers like TOR and you can hide your IP via VPNs. So, if you are paranoid, there are tools available.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by navin

If Google has your data, expect it to be shared with the US Government (FBI, CIA, NSA, etc) and, by extension, with the Governments of the UK, Germany, France, and all Governments that agree to share data (I assume the Indian Government is also part of this network). If Jio has your data, expect it to be shared with everyone, including the Indian Government.

It's not so easy in countries with protection built into the law. For e.g. in the US, UK etc, the police need a warrant, else nothing will be shared. And many companies try to reduce storage of data or change the way data is stored so as to thwart even the warrants - https://www.forbes.com/sites/cyrusfa...location-data/

Originally Posted by navin

If you have nothing to hide, why worry so much?

This is a known trope which has been debunked many times. May be I google for escorts all the time. Why should my Govt know?

Originally Posted by navin

There is something called the Dark Web with browsers like TOR and you can hide your IP via VPNs.

How will you hide from Govt mandating a GPS in your car supposedly for the purpose of making toll collection simpler?

[navin]

Originally Posted by carboy

It's not so easy in countries with protection built into the law.

This is a known trope which has been debunked many times. May be I google for escorts all the time. Why should my Govt know?

How will you hide from Govt mandating a GPS in your car supposedly for the purpose of making toll collection simpler?

So the law can find out what they need to about you. How much effort do you think is required to get a warrant?

If you don't want the Government to know you like to use the services of an escort, don't use the internet to find an escort. It's that simple.

Do they really need GPS to collect tolls? Don't they already have toll booths?

[carboy]

Originally Posted by navin

How much effort do you think is required to get a warrant?

Outside India, a lot. The police has to convince a judge. And if the judge issues a warrant without following due diligence, then the evidence obtained by the warrant will be thrown out of the court case - the prosecutor will not be allowed to use it. This will shame the judge so the judge won't issue a warrant unless it fulfills all the criteria. It's called "Fruit of a poisonous tree" in legal terms.

Originally Posted by navin

If you don't want the Government to know you like to use the services of an escort, don't use the internet to find an escort. It's that simple.

Why shouldn't I be able to without my govt knowing about it?

This solution is similar to "So what if this road is in bad shape, you can always use some other longer road which takes more time. It's that simple, you shouldn't complain about it"

Originally Posted by navin

Do they really need GPS to collect tolls? Don't they already have toll booths?

They don't. But they will implement it - India to roll out GPS-based toll collection by March '24

Making KYC mandatory for Fastag & levying huge penalty for paying by cash was never about anything else but leading to this.

[navin]

Originally Posted by carboy

Outside India, a lot.

Why shouldn't I be able to?

They don't.

It depends on the country. Each country has its own understanding of personal privacy. You have Estonia and Iceland at one end and North Korea and China at the other. My sister lives in Singapore, with limited freedoms but superb infrastructure. She is happy with this compromise. Most of us have a choice.

There is an option, even if it is more convoluted. By your logic, Saudi Arabia should have the same permissibility for alcohol as France.

I think India's shift towards a digital economy is beneficial. At some level (granted that this does not apply to the big fish), this shift has widened the tax net. As a tax-paying citizen, I am happy with every loophole closed.