[cooldip]

This is my first thread on TBHP after years of being an outsider and then limited participation on various threads.

I have a 2010 Fortuner (maybe I'll put up an ownership thread some day) with 167,xxx kms on the odometer. I've owned it from 2016 when it had done 99,666 kms.

About me

I have an OCD for mechanical/engineering perfection and this attribute has not let me down in life to date. This isn't the first old car in my life. I've grown up old with Ambasaddors and not afraid of regular breakdowns. My first car was a 3rd owner, 7 year old 1997 Maruti 800 that had everything broken when I bought it. I kept it for 5 years and sold it in ship shape. It could outrun my friend's MPFI Maruti 800.

The issue

I had been planning a replacement of injectors since they were about 14 years old. Not that there were issues with pickup or smoke but I still wanted to do it with a hidden agenda to add a Quantum stage 1 tune. I already run a Denso refurbished common rail fuel pump and my 1KD Fortuner does redline aroud 4K RPMs. It is on a strict diet of XtraGreen (IndianOil rolls out green fuel "XtraGreen" at 126 Fuel Stations across 63 cities in India) diesel since it launched in 2021.

Toyota had introduced an injector refurbishment program along with Denso in the past and it was designed to keep the total cost of ownership of Toyota diesels low. A new 1KD injector costs about Rs. 50,000.

I had some time in February 2024 and decided to send the car to Nandi Toyota to get the injectors replaced and sort out some other issues. I've been a customer of Nandi Toyota for the last 8 years and have shared a good rapport (or I thought so) with several folks there.

When I had the common rail fuel pump replaced, I had sourced the pump from Denso and Nandi had done the fitting and system coding job. I was expecting the same steps and that is where I was really suprised.

At first the Nandi senior technical leadership denied that the program even existed. When I escalated to the CRM and Toyota, they relented and acknowledged the existence of a Toyota approved program.

Real bomb was a quote of Rs. 25,xxx incl. GST per injector and it would include the labour cost as well.

Denso waz quoting Rs. 17,xxx incl. GST per factory refurbished injector.

So the math worked out to Rs.8,xxx incl. GST per injector as labour and handling. Nandi's excuse was that the premium is needed to cover warranty (Denso provides the said 6 month warranty in the 17K cost) and any other incidental costs. According to the CRM of Nandi, 1KD engines have a lot of rust and can break during opening. I had to try very hard to control the expletives.

The bigger shock was that when I forwarded the quote from Nandi to the Toyota VOC escalation point, they just redirected me to Nandi. I have escalated issues in the past and I've never seen this happen. Toyota must have changed their processes to comply with Indian dealership standards - dealer is king and dealers have complete freedom to fool customers. I wasn't expecting this from Toyota.

When I spoke to the CRM in detail he confirmed that these were Toyota approved rates and that they didn't have any issues if I escalated to anyone in Toyota. And he was right. There was complete radio silence from Toyota VOC apart from a ticket in their system that isn't worth the cost KBs of data that it occupies on a storage.

The whole purpose of the injector refurbishment with Denso was to keep the costs low. A 47% markup isn't exactly low cost of ownership. I agree that this 47% includes labour but the labour for replacing injectors was about Rs. 4-5K the last time I checked.

Takeaways

1. Toyota India (TKM) is focusing less on its core values of customer satisfaction and quality. I have had multiple instances of Nandi failing to get things right the first time. This time when replacing transmission fluids they followed the procedure of a 2WD vehicle. It was only when I stepped onto the bay and escalated did they followed the procedure of a 4WD. I had asked for cleaning out both the evaporators. After the cleanup, there was something wrong with the rear evaporator and it was letting in foul smells. There are multiple previous instances where workshops are getting procedures grossly wrong. There is no process to focus on these mistakes and work on improvements. Where is first-time-right, RCA or Kaizen?
2. Workshops are being given a free hand without much supervision from Toyota. This wasn't the case till a few years back. I loved owning a Toyota because workshops really cared about Toyota's core values
3. Toyotas run so well because of the engineering in the design process. They run well in spite of the workshops.

Conclusion

I didn't get the job done for now. I have an option to source the materials and get it done at a reliable FNG. However, considering the amount of time I would have to spend I may still negotiate hard with Nandi and get it done with them. The workshop is close to my place, they have the right tools and I know people on the floor to get the job done right. Even after all this I maintain a great working relationship with the Service manager. He does everything he can to keep me happy. Will I buy another Toyota - I'm waiting for the TNGA-F launch to put my money.

I just got back from a 1,200km family vacation that involved 6 lane expressways, some twisty roads and some very broken sections of road. I still trust my 14 year car to drive respectable speeds on highways, drive through the night and drive over broken surfaces at speeds that most cars wouldn't attempt for the fear of shaking stuff loose.

[Aditya]

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!

[GTO]

Originally Posted by cooldip

Real bomb was a quote of Rs. 25,xxx incl. GST per injector and it would include the labour cost as well.

Denso waz quoting Rs. 17,xxx incl. GST per factory refurbished injector.

So the math worked out to Rs.8,xxx incl. GST per injector as labour and handling. Nandi's excuse was that the premium is needed to cover warranty (Denso provides the said 6 month warranty in the 17K cost) and any other incidental costs.

Honestly, I'm not understanding what the problem is here. The authorised dealer / service station is always more expensive than anyone outside. You are mentioning a 47% markup; I have seen 200% markups in my ownerships of Hondas, Mercedes, BMW & even Nissan.

As your car ages, you have three options:

1. Find a great aftermarket independent mechanic to maintain your cars. Once you find an honest expert fellow, 90% of your job is done. The labour & parts (OEM / original) will be significantly cheaper.

2. Pay through your nose and get everything done at the dealership. I don't believe in this, but it is the preference of some car owners (e.g. Androdev & his 11-year old S-Class).

3. Hybrid model: Use the authorised service station for standard maintenance & wherever costs are reasonable. For the really expensive work (e.g. failed ABS module), go to the aftermarket garage.

[cooldip]

Originally Posted by GTO

Honestly, I'm not understanding what the problem is here. The authorised dealer / service station is always more expensive than anyone outside. You are mentioning a 47% markup; I have seen 200% markups in my ownerships of Hondas, Mercedes, BMW & even Nissan.

Point taken. Possibly I had unrealistic expectations of Toyota based on my previous experiences and my relationship with the service folks at Nandi Toyota.

I'm already doing hybrid since the suspension is non-stock and I use Mobil1 ESP instead of Toyota engine oil.

I still prefer TASS for the engine jobs because they have better tooling and have experts at hand to rectify invariable mistakes of service technicians.

I'm just complaining since Toyota service has been getting progressively more expensive (higher than the typical INR inflation and forex inflation but so have their cars). The service folks also complain that parts have been getting unreasonably expensive since 2021.

Originally Posted by cooldip

Toyota India (TKM) is focusing less on its core values of customer satisfaction and quality. I have had multiple instances of Nandi failing to get things right the first time. This time when replacing transmission fluids they followed the procedure of a 2WD vehicle. It was only when I stepped onto the bay and escalated did they followed the procedure of a 4WD. I had asked for cleaning out both the evaporators. After the cleanup, there was something wrong with the rear evaporator and it was letting in foul smells. There are multiple previous instances where workshops are getting procedures grossly wrong. There is no process to focus on these mistakes and work on improvements. Where is first-time-right, RCA or Kaizen?

My other grouse is that I can see glaring omissions of principles of the Toyota Production System/Lean Principles. Owning a Toyota was as much about experiencing their principles firsthand. Sadly, I can only experience it through the product. Not the service.

[nirmaljusdoit]

It is surprising to see Toyota service like this ! Usually they are very proactive in resolving customer issues.

On the other hand, may i know why you want to replace the injectors ? In Toyota, Denso made injectors are usually a lifetime part and just need refurbishment which can be done outside as well. Many FNG’s are quite professional to handle it. There are Toyota trained workshops outside as well (T- SERV) Where you having any issues with more clattering, mileage, pickup etc ?

[howler]

Originally Posted by nirmaljusdoit

It is surprising to see Toyota service like this ! Usually they are very proactive in resolving customer issues.

On the other hand, may i know why you want to replace the injectors ? In Toyota, Denso made injectors are usually a lifetime part and just need refurbishment which can be done outside as well. Many FNG’s are quite professional to handle it. There are Toyota trained workshops outside as well (T- SERV) Where you having any issues with more clattering, mileage, pickup etc ?

1KD FTV s are susceptible to piston cracking cases due to faulty injectors. 170k km is the in official mark around which 1KD users recommend changing injectors.

+1 to OPs rant on Nandi; they have started blatantly ripping off customers off late: I had multiple fake labour charges layered into my bill that the SA tried to bs his way out off. I am considering shifting to an alternate Toyota service centre, given their plummeting service quality and dis -honesty.

[Amrit@wheels]

The way you have maintained your steed (congratulations on that by the way), I'd suggest you arrange a meeting and negotiate as hard as you can and get it done at the dealership itself. This will ensure absolute peace of mind over time, the major advantage of owning a Toyota.

On a different note, I have driven the same car for enough time to know the overall behavior and I'd advise you against any type of power boost unless you have upgraded the brakes. You are already running a performance suspension setup, but the stock brakes are downright poor. Even after the booster upgrade, they do not inspire confidence. So, just a friendly advice from a fellow OG Fortuner owner, don't go for the remap or get the brakes upgraded before.

[sasta_rider]

Originally Posted by cooldip

[list=1][*] Toyota India (TKM) is focusing less on its core values of customer satisfaction and quality. I have had multiple instances of Nandi failing to get things right the first time. This time when replacing transmission fluids they followed the procedure of a 2WD vehicle. It was only when I stepped onto the bay and escalated did they followed the procedure of a 4WD. I had asked for cleaning out both the evaporators. After the cleanup, there was something wrong with the rear evaporator and it was letting in foul smells. There are multiple previous instances where workshops are getting procedures grossly wrong. There is no process to focus on these mistakes and work on improvements. Where is first-time-right, RCA or Kaizen?

@cooldip It is very sad to see certain Toyota dealers and TASS are just ripping off their customers. I had similar situation with United Toyota, Mangaluru where the TASS technicians could not find a leak in the airconditioning unit of my 2011 Innova but they charged me a bomb ₹30.xxx/- which included the labor to remove (and re-attach) the dashboards, refill the refrigerant and deliver me the vehicle with same issue (low AC cooling) after 2 regular visits.

Later, a FNG mechanic, who is expert in car air conditioning troubleshooting, could fix the same for a minimal cost.

Since 2011, my Innova has gone through periodic service for every 5000 km from TASS. Majority of the service was done from Amana Toyota, Periya (Kasaragod) who are the masters in identifying and fixing any issue. In fact, entire dealership network of Amana have good name for the work they do. At times, I had to take Innova to United Toyota, Mangaluru (pathetic), DSK Toyota, Pune (during one long trip) and FNGs for minor issues.

I too agree with you that the labour and the price of parts have sky-rocketed: all thanks to the inflation, aging car (unavoidable) and the current car scene where diesels are being suppressed by the government in the name of emission norms!

Toyota India should step-in where the customer is being ripped by the dealer, which was not the case few years back. Sad but this reality hits hard when owning a good old OG Toyota cars like the Qualis, Corolla, Innova, Etios and Fortuner: which cannot be let go off ownership. I really wish Toyota slowly turns more towards their customers than being so rude and negligible!

Drive safe!
Sud.

[Brumby]

Originally Posted by cooldip

The bigger shock was that when I forwarded the quote from Nandi to the Toyota VOC escalation point, they just redirected me to Nandi. I have escalated issues in the past and I've never seen this happen. Toyota must have changed their processes to comply with Indian dealership standards - dealer is king and dealers have complete freedom to fool customers. I wasn't expecting this from Toyota.

This is the SUZUKI effect.

It's sad, but at present Toyota is more like Maruti Suzuki in dealing with customers. I am a customer for more than 15 years now and I do feel there's a great deal of difference how Toyota service centres deal with customers.

For business it's good, because the mantra for a profitable business is the balance sheet at the end of each financial year. No one is looking for long term benefits and it doesn't matter.

Cheers

[maddy42]

Originally Posted by Brumby

This is the SUZUKI effect.

It's sad, but at present Toyota is more like Maruti Suzuki in dealing with customers. I am a customer for more than 15 years now and I do feel there's a great deal of difference how Toyota service centres deal with customers.

For business it's good, because the mantra for a profitable business is the balance sheet at the end of each financial year. No one is looking for long term benefits and it doesn't matter.

Cheers

The past 4 visits to the service center has costed more then a lac each on our 10 year old fortuner. Labor cost is insanely high and its about time we go to the mechanic who does the service in his garage instead.

Another reality is that Toyota prices have reached a point of no return. In mysore the highest selling vehicle is still the Innova Crysta and not the Hycross. Their sales of the suzuki products are not bringing as much footfall as expected and they have had a flat year.

Not a cent percent sure that this is a reason too.

[Small Bot]

I understand that the markup seems huge, but this is exactly how the service centres mint money. Everybody does that, just that I haven't heard of a nearly 50% markup before.

I was chatting with a Popular Vehicles service advisor once, and he told me that the margins on most of the cars sold by Maruti are wafer-thin, and markup on selling accessories and parts and labour charges are where Maruti actually makes a ton of money.

I think Toyota in India is becoming more like Maruti Suzuki in the way they deal with most things. While we as consumers might feel it's bad, I think Toyota would be laughing their way to the bank.

I don't think you can attach the Premium tag to Toyota any longer, when they seem to have foregone that for making more money.

[CJP]

I had very similar experiences with Nandi and Viva - incompetent technicians, lousy troubleshooting skills and just kept changing parts. I now work with an FNG or Wheels Wisdom.

I did injector service as well a couple of years back. I contacted the authorised Denso Service Center in Bangalore and arranged with them to service the injectors. In parallel, I also worked with Ravindu at Yeshwanthpur to dismantle the injectors and fit them back after service. I had to give in writing that I am personally underwriting the risk etc.. Worked out well. Don't remember the exact cost etc..

Toyota Dealership Service is pathetic now, the good technicians are mostly all gone, the ones that remain are just spanner jockeys who are trained to just keep replacing parts. No trouble shooting or problem solving skills, heck they don't even think through the problems logically.

The only saving grace at Ravindu is that they have some good technicians who focus on engines and more complex stuff, but you have to work with the SA to ensure that you get the better ones, not someone who is on a PIP! And their body shop is good too - very clean and accurate work.