[Mail.atyagi]

Originally Posted by vsun

Why Toyota took the burden? I can't understand why Toyota did not asked you to fight for insurance.

Let us assume that the Insurance company was true. In that case, whose fault is this? Why the screw become loose? Is there any manufacturing defect in the screw? Is it the customer's responsibility to keep all the screws and bolts of his car tight? When the car is going for periodic services, is it not the responsibility of the service center to check all this types of screws?

I feel that Toyota needs to pay full amount (you also have extended warranty) if Insurance company is right and if Toyota is right, I feel Insurance company needs to pay.

Some more points that may need attention:

Is your car going for periodic services in time?

When did you last serviced your car before this incident?

Is the car maintained well?

Is it chauffeur driven or self driven?

Any off-road activates?

Please don't think otherwise for so many questions. You may need to keep lot of information in hand if you want to challenge in court.

Toyota, on its part, insisted it's not covered under warranty since external impact is there. Insurer kept insisting the impact couldn't be cause of the nut to loosen and insurance surveyor, company officials as well as forensic study all suggested same. None of them could convince each other and none took the ownership. It was after a lot of escalations and after a long wait that this resolution was arrived at through Toyota.

Regarding other questions-
On-time service by authorised Toyota workshop. Even all accessories as well as battery replacement by Toyota dealer except the tyres which were changed around 43K Km. Last service was around 4k km before this incident.
No off-road, 100% self driven.

I had the same question to both Toyota and Ergo that they both need to agree whether it falls under insurance claim(which ideally it should) or under warranty. However, this was wishful thinking and at the end I got sick of waiting for the car during these times. Had also got my left hand fractured during this time and missed the AT terribly.

Further, had some fuel reimbursement claim amount from the employer as travel was restricted during the COVID times which could be utilized for repairs. The planned expenses on premium seat covers as well as complete ICE upgrade and some other accessories goes to the bin though

[Aditya]

Toyota Innova Crysta: Transmission oil lost after underbody impact; insurer denies claim - Posts moved to a new thread.

[vinu_h]

Toyota rep(s) flew from Bengaluru and Hyderabad to Delhi & back, to meet with you. This in itself would have cost ~ INR 50k+ per head. They could've instead had a local rep manage the relationship and reduced your outflow by how much ever this travel/joy ride cost them.

[vigsom]

Originally Posted by Mail.atyagi

The underbody got scraped by the metal object which unfortunately hit exactly on the Automatic Transmission pan and seems like it removed the nut which led to transmission oil drainage

It is next to impossible that the transmission oil drain bolt could come off as a result of this impact. Yes, maybe the bolt was already loose and came off over time OR the oil was lost from elsewhere.

Attaching few pictures from the forensic analysis report along with some of the comments

Originally Posted by Sankar

The forensic report looks like it was made to absolve the insurer from his payout.

That "forensic" report resembles a dreaded Physics lecture, and very clearly looks to be made to absolve the insurer from honoring this claim, and to make Toyota look good. For the insurer, it is at least INR 2.0 lacs saved.

@Mail.atyagi, please do not get into fighting this case out. Think of this INR 3.0 lacs as money gone due to hard luck. Many of us have lost money some way or the other in these bad times.

Honestly, it is very hard to explain how the drain bolt could have come off due to this impact. The oil could have got drained from elsewhere. Maybe the drain bolt was removed before the "investigation" to create a twist. Maybe it was actually a fault on Toyota's part. Can't say.

We buy extended warranty for peace of mind. We buy insurance with many add on covers for peace of mind. Yet, we can't have peace of mind when these protectors are supposed to step in. Sad !!

[rahulskumar]

Originally Posted by vinu_h

Toyota rep(s) flew from Bengaluru and Hyderabad to Delhi & back, to meet with you. This in itself would have cost ~ INR 50k+ per head. They could've instead had a local rep manage the relationship and reduced your outflow by how much ever this travel/joy ride cost them.

Similar incident happened with parents 2018 Altis. Cruise control was not working after last years lockdown and service center narrowed down the issue to ECU. Toyota higher ups flew down to Mumbai and checked the vehicle before approving warranty claim. Due to this we had to keep the car at service center for a week. As per them ECU will never fail and they were not accepting the failure. As vehicle was under warranty and they finally had to accept the issue with the ECU and offered replacement.

From my experience, Maruti is the only company who accepts warranty claim easily and do not make customers run for the mistakes manufacturers make

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by rahulskumar

As vehicle was under warranty and they finally had to accept the issue with the ECU and offered replacement.

From my experience, Maruti is the only company who accepts warranty claim easily and do not make customers run for the mistakes manufacturers make

Knowing little about how Toyota works, if it's true that someone actually came from the HQ, it doesn't mean that they don't trust their customer or dealers. It will usually be due to something extraordinary that needs to be thoroughly investigated to find the root cause. I remember reading somewhere, Kiichiro Toyoda, himself went to check one of the first cars that had broken on the road.

So, it's just their way of finding the reasons or at least, I think that way.

[Lowflyer23]

Man, Hats off to Toyota. There is a reason their cars are expensive compared to the competition (they are stretching it a bit too far with the fortuner though), all the Toyota customers I have interacted with till date are happy and satisfied. You start to value these things when the teenage enthusiast in you begins getting more mature and think practically. As V.Narayan sir mentioned in a thread, you buy the overall experience (product+service) and not the product only.

[bpapache]

Originally Posted by vigsom

It is next to impossible that the transmission oil drain bolt could come off as a result of this impact. Yes, maybe the bolt was already loose and came off over time OR the oil was lost from elsewhere.

IMO there's a good possibility that the impact could have knocked the head of the bolt from the car. This would mean that the stem of the bolt(with threads) would eventually loosen and fall off due to vibration.

I've seen the head of the bolt getting cut if good force is applied. Of course I've not seen them on a car, but i feel its possible. Given that a metal object hit the moving car, it sounds possible.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by rahulskumar

Similar incident happened with parents 2018 Altis. Cruise control was not working after last years lockdown and service center narrowed down the issue to ECU. Toyota higher ups flew down to Mumbai and checked the vehicle before approving warranty claim. Due to this we had to keep the car at service center for a week. As per them ECU will never fail and they were not accepting the failure. As vehicle was under warranty and they finally had to accept the issue with the ECU and offered replacement.

From my experience, Maruti is the only company who accepts warranty claim easily and do not make customers run for the mistakes manufacturers make

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Knowing little about how Toyota works, if it's true that someone actually came from the HQ, it doesn't mean that they don't trust their customer or dealers. It will usually be due to something extraordinary that needs to be thoroughly investigated to find the root cause. I remember reading somewhere, Kiichiro Toyoda, himself went to check one of the first cars that had broken on the road.

So, it's just their way of finding the reasons or at least, I think that way.

Similarly for the brake rotor issue in 2017 iirc Toyota reps came down from TKM to understand what is actually wrong and how it is happening. Its part of the Toyota way to learn what went wrong and how it may be prevented in future. Due to this warranty approval is also a pain, they have too much faith in their product (sometimes misplaced) to accept that something needs correction.

The blower fan whine comes into my mind. Some people including me have this hard to notice low vol whine of the AC blower fan at high speeds. It is intermittent and sometimes only happens when its run for a long time and often is barely noticeable if you have music playing. Getting warranty on this is difficult, but not impossible. Anyway Toyota found out that this whine was caused by the 90deg alignment of the carbon brushes and rectified it by angling the brush in the later models. So I think thats how Toyota work, if the problem is unique they will get their people to look at it, they don't accept that their part could go wrong and if it does they want a good look into it before accepting it. Btw I don't have a problem with that intermittent low volume whine its hardly noticeable with radio playing at low volume so I still have the original blower fan and neither have I asked them to replace it.

Originally Posted by vigsom

We buy extended warranty for peace of mind. We buy insurance with many add on covers for peace of mind. Yet, we can't have peace of mind when these protectors are supposed to step in. Sad !!

After paying through the nose the customer gets screwed in the end always

[1985Darkkid85]

Have you challenged the insurer in the Ombudsman court?
Get down there, explain your woes , you will be given a bunch of documents to sign and you will be asked for the policy details, policy cover and your ID's.
You will have to be present (or you can send out a representative) at the ombudsman court for the case hearing.

Simultaneously, also file a consumer court with massive grievances against the insurer for poor service/mental agony.

This is what i did when ICICI Lombard refused to honor my bumper/fog assembly claims citing flimsy reasons.
I did not purpose the case in consumer court, as i had no time.

Hope this helps you to some extent

[Jeroen]

I hate to be a party pooper, but I too find it extremely unlikely that such a drain nut gets loosened by a (foreign) object hitting against it. If it did, I would think there would be visible damage to the thread.

You should try and undo a bolt or nut that is only tightened to say 15 Nm (seems appropriate for such a drain plug) by hitting it with a hammer. It won’t work. You will need a punch or a large sturdy screw driver and position it exactly at the right corner of the hex nut/bolt. It will take repeated whacking to get it loose.

Not sure on this one, usually there is some sort of washer on these drain plug. Which provide elasticity on the tightening/stretching of the bolt and help seal. I

If that drain plug was installed properly I don’t see it coming undone by something scraping across the sump. Obviously it was not sheared off, as that would definitely show. The drain plug must have been loose before, or maybe an incorrect size or type was fitted.

Sorry, I am not a particular fan of insurance companies, but I think they have a very valid point. Not accidental damage seems the correct conclusion. Which means they won’t pay as it is not covered.


Jeroen

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Sorry, I am not a particular fan of insurance companies, but I think they have a very valid point. Not accidental damage seems the correct conclusion. Which means they won’t pay as it is not covered.

I'm an insurance domain consultant by profession. I too thought about it from the same angle as you did, but then I think this comes under the Comprehensive coverage that applies to the car. Collision coverage applies when other automobiles collide with one's own car; but Comprehensive coverage kicks in with fire, theft, vandalism, falling objects, hitting road debris etc.

In my opinion, this is a case for the IRDAI appointed Insurance ombudsman to look at. The insurer had no business rejecting the claim, unless they can prove that the policyholder had broken the law when incurring the damage, or if insurance coverage was inactive when it occurred, if the car was modified and not notified on the RC and policy document etc.

[Drive Head]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Knowing little about how Toyota works, if it's true that someone actually came from the HQ, it doesn't mean that they don't trust their customer or dealers. It will usually be due to something extraordinary that needs to be thoroughly investigated to find the root cause.

This is so enlightening. I have never thought on this line.
Going deeper into weird malfunctions and using the same knowledge for product upgrade is a sure shot way of building and leading a long trusting brand to success.

[Mail.atyagi]

Originally Posted by vinu_h

Toyota rep(s) flew from Bengaluru and Hyderabad to Delhi & back, to meet with you. This in itself would have cost ~ INR 50k+ per head. They could've instead had a local rep manage the relationship and reduced your outflow by how much ever this travel/joy ride cost them.

The local CRM based in NCR couldn't manage the issue and I had escalated this to Mr Vikram Kirloskar. Hence HO pitched in, otherwise initially they were quite OK with me sulking over the issue by saying it's accidental and not covered under warranty.

Originally Posted by vigsom

We buy extended warranty for peace of mind. We buy insurance with many add on covers for peace of mind. Yet, we can't have peace of mind when these protectors are supposed to step in. Sad !!

Indeed! I too have a numerous add-ons including engine and transmission damage as well. But in the end, they'll try to reject for any reason that they think they can manage.

Originally Posted by 1985Darkkid85

Have you challenged the insurer in the Ombudsman court?


Hope this helps you to some extent

Not yet. Still pondering over the same and in the meanwhile this surve in COVID have restricted moving out. Not sure if this can be done online. Had filed an online grievance through UMANG app, got same revert as closure after few days.

Originally Posted by Sankar

After paying through the nose the customer gets screwed in the end always

Brutal truth

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I hate to be a party pooper, but I too find it extremely unlikely that such a drain nut gets loosened by a (foreign) object hitting against it. If it did, I would think there would be visible damage to the thread.

Sorry, I am not a particular fan of insurance companies, but I think they have a very valid point. Not accidental damage seems the correct conclusion. Which means they won’t pay as it is not covered.


Jeroen

If I wasn't driving it myself while the accident happened, I would also have thought the same. But my fair opinion, without any positive/negative bias towards either manufacturer or insurer, is that it was purely accidental. One of those unfortunate cases

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Drive Head

Going deeper into weird malfunctions and using the same knowledge for product upgrade is a sure shot way of building and leading a long trusting brand to success.

They have a term for this thing - genchi genbutsu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genchi_Genbutsu

• Problem Solving (Continuous Improvement and Learning)

Principle 12: Go and see for yourself to thoroughly understand the situation (genchi genbutsu).

If you want to learn more, go through this

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/236177378.pdf

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I too find it extremely unlikely that such a drain nut gets loosened by a (foreign) object hitting against it.The drain plug must have been loose before, or maybe an incorrect size or type was fitted. Not accidental damage seems the correct conclusion.

I will agree with your observations. It might be possible that somebody outside the dealership had tried to open this mistaking it with something else (and the bolt got lose afterwards). It will be easier if OP can check if he went outside for any repairs?