[Mail.atyagi]

A little off track but sharing it in the official Innova Crysta group. I hope none of the other members have to face the similar problem with the AT transmission / Torque Converter of Innova Crysta.
Earlier discussion here https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...ml#post5049560 (Hyundai Creta with 1.15 lakh km | AT gearbox fails, quote of 7.1 lakhs | EDIT: Resolved (page 4))

My 2016 Innova Crysta GX 2.8 AT met with a strange accident in January 2021. I ran it over a small rod-like metal object while driving. The underbody got scraped by the metal object which unfortunately hit exactly on the Automatic Transmission pan and seems like it removed the nut which led to transmission oil drainage. This led to the automatic transmission behaving erratically. The rpm surged abnormally during gearshifts and reverse gear wasn't engaging easily.

Toyota assessed the damages to be accidental in nature and hence warranty claim was rejected ( I had opted for 5 year, 1Lakh Km Extended warranty and it still had 9 months and 17K km left). Insurer assessed that the accident couldn't remove the nut and it could be loose/worn out and hence accidental claim was rejected. Upon escalations to top management, they also did a so-called forensic analysis through an independent expert flewn from Hyderabad who also validated their finding that the nut could not be removed from the impact. This went on for almost 2.5 months and I had made up my mind to go for legal case against both.


Eventually Toyota customer care team from HO Bengaluru flew to Delhi to meet me and suggested for a goodwill gesture which meant all 3 parties (Toyota, insurer, customer) would bear 1/3rd of repair cost. Insurer didn't came on board and insisted their stand is final.

Finally it was decided to share approx 50 % each by Toyota and myself to get th vehicle back on road. Initially Toyota assessed only transmission assembly to be replaced since it can't be repaired. However, during final repair work, they found some metal particles in torque converter assembly and replaced that as well. I didn't pay more than 50% of earlier assessed cost of approx 6 lakhs and rest Toyota adjusted between themselves and the dealer.

Transmission Assembly cost is Rs 4,72,834. Torque converter assembly cost is 81,014. Add 28% GST over this. The replacement was done around 10 days back.

I have driven around 500 km after the repair work and it drives like a breeze.

I am still contemplating filing a case against the insurer and waiting for a final closure from their side as someone from their side suggested they were having internal discussions on paying 1/3 of the costs.

Someone told me this is the first Crysta which has faced this particular problem( not sure though) hence I thought a separate post should not be required.

[padmrajravi]

Underbody hits are always financially draining in the case of automatic transmission-equipped vehicles. Full marks to Toyota for taking care of at least 50% of your expenditure. Since this was a clear case of an accident, nobody could have blamed them even if they deny any support. I don't think you should wait to file a case against the insurer. In my opinion, It was completely their responsibility to absorb the cost and they backed off citing flimsy reasons. That is not acceptable. All these internal discussions to pay 1/3rd of the cost seem like a delaying tactic to me. You should immediately approach them with a lawyer.

[DicKy]

Only if the insurer had shown half the integrity of Toyota. That too when Toyota could have washed their hands off citing accidental damage, while the whole point of taking an insurance is for incidents like this.

The insurance premiums paid should amount to something!

[gkveda]

Originally Posted by Mail.atyagi

A little off track but sharing it in the official Innova Crysta group.

Another story of insurers denying the claim.

I think you should report this to the insurance ombudsman - IRDA. If the issue has started because of accident, Company is bound to pay the claim irrespective of whether the nut has possibility of slippage due to accidents or not.

Offtopic, I think we should have a new thread where all stories of insurance denials are discussed.

This post should move to that insurance thread(if such thread already exists.)

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Mail.atyagi

A little off track but sharing it in the official Innova Crysta group. I hope none of the other members have to face the similar problem with the AT transmission / Torque Converter of Innova Crysta.
...

You and Toyota had to pay ~ 3lakhs each for a new transmission with torque convertor assembly and because the insurer wouldn't pay for it. I am glad that Toyota stepped in although they were not required to do it if the failure was due to accidental damage.

The AT pan drain nuts are flat round head bolt with a hex socket center and does not protrude beyond the pan. But if in one of the rarest of the rare cases that if it does get caught in a way at the side that could twist it loose with the forward motion of the vehicle it can come loose. Since the AT pan is not the lowest point of the vehicle it is a very rare thing to happen. The rear differential also has a similar drain bolt but it sits inside a round metal wall to prevent the bolt from getting caught on anything and shearing off or coming undone it since the rear diff is the lowest part of the vehicle. If you have a picture of the damaged pan please post it.

The dealer service center do not touch the auto transmission even during regular service so as to check even fluid levels, because as per Toyota it is sealed for life. The AT is a no go zone for them. While the auto transmissions can be repaired it is not attempted by the dealer service centers for reasons best known to them and TKM. I guess it is mainly due to the lack of knowledge in repairing it or maybe the fear of opening it cleaning it and not being able to put it back together properly. The metal shavings found in your crysta's transmission is a given because with oil levels dropping due tot he pan damage there would be wear and tear.

Insurers are leeches they sell you the premium for a high cost but will not pay up if they can find a reason not to pay (the rainmaker). The bolt can get sheared off or come undone if it gets caught in such a way and that is why the diff drain bolt has a wall around it. AT pan sits higher and normally the drain bolt there it is not expected to catch anything but if it does its also a bolt and tightened at a lower torque setting than rear diff bolt.

[jkrishnakj]

Which insurance company is this? Appears they are clearly trying to stage a walk away from their responsibility. Very flimsy reason for denial. Even if you agree that the nut can’t come off in an incident such as yours, does the insurance company believe that someone went underneath and decided to play with the nut?

[Mail.atyagi]

Originally Posted by Sankar

You and Toyota had to pay ~ 3lakhs each for a new transmission with torque convertor assembly and because the insurer wouldn't pay for it. I am glad that Toyota stepped in although they were not required to do it if the failure was due to accidental damage.

The AT pan drain nuts are flat round head bolt with a hex socket center and does not protrude beyond the pan. But if in one of the rarest of the rare cases that if it does get caught in a way at the side that could twist it loose with the forward motion of the vehicle it can come loose. Since the AT pan is not the lowest point of the vehicle it is a very rare thing to happen. The rear differential also has a similar drain bolt but it sits inside a round metal wall to prevent the bolt from getting caught on anything and shearing off or coming undone it since the rear diff is the lowest part of the vehicle. If you have a picture of the damaged pan please post it.

Attaching few pictures from the forensic analysis report along with some of the comments. It is screenshot from the pdf report and hence the image quality may not be great. Could not find how to attach the pictures in order as in the report for better understanding, apologies for the same.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Mail.atyagi

Attaching few pictures from the forensic analysis report along with some of the comments. It is screenshot from the pdf report and hence the image quality may not be great. Could not find how to attach the pictures in order as in the report for better understanding, apologies for the same.

So the drain bolt was missing when the vehicle was brought to the dealer. That means it loosened and fell off. It is also noted that the bolt which was lost is the regular hex head bolt and not the hex center bolt (also in the picture) the former is easier to get caught unlike round head hex center bolt.



This report above mentions about foreign object loosing velocity as it gets to the bolt????! You have to tell them that it was the vehicle which was moving and not something moving that hit the AT pan. The momentum of the vehicle even if it was creeping forward at 7kmph (creep speed) would be too much for that pan or bolt to resist when it came across something that caught it from underneath. The vehicle would move forward if you engage handbrake and put in in D or R without giving throttle, so how is it that some object which catch the AT pan or the bolt make the vehicle stop or even slow down much? Both gave away pan dented and bolt loosened and eventually fell down somewhere.

You also need to remind them that the road is not a flat surface and the vehicle does not travel on rails and has a pliable suspension. It is possible to have more contact at some points and or less or no contact at the other sites.

The forensic report looks like it was made to absolve the insurer from his payout.

[sid_deb]

Originally Posted by Sankar

You and Toyota had to pay ~ 3lakhs each for a new transmission with torque convertor assembly and because the insurer wouldn't pay for it. I am glad that Toyota stepped in although they were not required to do it if the failure was due to accidental damage.

Toyota just let go off their and dealer margin on the bill which is typically around 35-40%. They did the job at no-profit basis.

It seems like they didn't want to loose their goodwill. While this is a totally one-off scenario, I am just wondering if a better design of the bolt assembly could have avoided it. Or having the warning light on the panel activated informing the driver to stop and tow the car when the transmission fluid leaked out to avoid so much damage.

[Mail.atyagi]

Originally Posted by Sankar

The forensic report looks like it was made to absolve the insurer from his payout.

I absolutely echo the views and have got exhausted explaining this to insurance company as well as Toyota that either of them will have to take the ownership.
It is also to be mentioned that Toyota didn't come forward with goodwill gesture unless it was raised to the vice chairman multiple times. Initially both Toyota and insurer conveniently passed the blame to other and were not even talking to each other for arriving at a common understanding of the issue.

Finally accepted the offer from Toyota just to get the vehicle back on road. Anyways I have the option of filing a legal case against the insurer.

Another point, Toyota customer service claimed that they had to get the part shipped from Phillipines to Bengaluru and then to Noida and they have done this on their expense as express shipping despite Covid related challenges and had spent a fair amount for the same. Seriously not sure if that's true. Also, Toyota replaced torque converter even though out agreement was for transmission assembly only. They insisted me to bear additional cost for same in same proportion but I refused and they were ok with that.

Overall an extremely unpleasant and tiring experience but still feel that Toyota has regained my trust in the end.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Mail.atyagi

Eventually Toyota customer care team from HO Bengaluru flew to Delhi to meet me and suggested for a goodwill gesture which meant all 3 parties (Toyota, insurer, customer) would bear 1/3rd of repair cost. Insurer didn't came on board and insisted their stand is final.

Do you mind sharing the insurance company name here so that we can all blacklist this company for any of our future insurances?

And I definitely feel you should escalate this with IRDA.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by amalji

Do you mind sharing the insurance company name here so that we can all blacklist this company for any of our future insurances?

And I definitely feel you should escalate this with IRDA.

Originally Posted by Mail.atyagi

Finally accepted the offer from Toyota just to get the vehicle back on road. Anyways I have the option of filing a legal case against the insurer.

Overall an extremely unpleasant and tiring experience but still feel that Toyota has regained my trust in the end.

Can you share which insurer this is? Its good to know. I hope its not Toyota Protect.

Originally Posted by Mail.atyagi

Another point, Toyota customer service claimed that they had to get the part shipped from Phillipines to Bengaluru and then to Noida and they have done this on their expense as express shipping despite Covid related challenges and had spent a fair amount for the same. Seriously not sure if that's true. Also, Toyota replaced torque converter even though out agreement was for transmission assembly only. They insisted me to bear additional cost for same in same proportion but I refused and they were ok with that.

Must be true but from what I have seen it is usually either Thailand or Japan. Most never replaced sort of parts (and even some routine replacement parts) that I have seen has made in Thailand on them and sometimes Japan. The engines used to be imported from Thailand at one time till they set up an engine factory in India.

[Mail.atyagi]

Originally Posted by Sankar

Can you share which insurer this is? Its good to know. I hope its not Toyota Protect.



Must be true but from what I have seen it is usually either Thailand or Japan. Most never replaced sort of parts (and even some routine replacement parts) that I have seen has made in Thailand on them and sometimes Japan. The engines used to be imported from Thailand at one time till they set up an engine factory in India.

Good observation Sankar. Actually the part is made in Thailand but they got it shipped from Phillipines due to transit issues.

Insurance is through HDFC Ergo and not through Toyota Protect. The customer service even suggested me that if it was Toyota Protect, TKM would have ensured the insurer honoured the claim.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Mail.atyagi

Good observation Sankar. Actually the part is made in Thailand but they got it shipped from Phillipines due to transit issues.

Insurance is through HDFC Ergo and not through Toyota Protect. The customer service even suggested me that if it was Toyota Protect, TKM would have ensured the insurer honoured the claim.

Our i10 is on HDFC ERGO and I haven't had to make any claims on that so I don't know how good or bad they are. Its renewal is actually coming up in the first week of May and I think I will skip HDFC ERGO for Acko or digit.

Crysta is on Toyota Protect and will continue with them because of the peace of mind it gives. I had to make a large claim with outside bought insurance in 2019 although it was handled as a cashless claim by Royal Sundaram I decided to return back to Toyota Protect from 2020 onwards due to the ease of claim process, faster settlement, and freedom to garage to do necessary repairs properly.

[vsun]

Why did Toyota take the burden? I can't understand why Toyota did not ask you to fight for insurance.

Let us assume that the Insurance company was right. In that case, whose fault is this? Why did the screw become loose? Is there any manufacturing defect in the screw? Is it the customer's responsibility to keep all the screws and bolts of his car tight? When the car is going for periodic services, is it not the responsibility of the service center to check all these types of screws?

I feel that Toyota needs to pay the full amount (you also have extended warranty) if the insurance company is right and if Toyota is right, I feel insurance company needs to pay.

Some more points that may need attention:

Is your car going for periodic services on time?

When did you last service your car before this incident?

Is the car maintained well?

Is it chauffeur driven or self driven?

Any off-road activities?

Please don't think otherwise for so many questions. You may need to keep lot of information in hand if you want to challenge in court.