[Aroy]

The price and VFM are in the eye of the beholder. Both good manufacturing practice and stringent QA cost money, a lot of money. All of us are cribbing of the niggles faced in Tata and M&M products, but still buy them. Would we pay more for better QA and better manufacturing. I do not think so. Well a few would not mind paying but if faced with a bill of 2L or more, most of us would prefer the niggles to higher cost. Facilities not withstanding, most of the sales are at the lowest trim level. What sells is the lowest cost offering at a given segment/size, and not the most comfortable at one segment lower.

Faced with a choice of a lower cost more problematic car and a higher cost, practically zero niggle car, how many would go for the higher cost option? Sales figures show that only an insignificant minority does.

So if Toyota gets a small SUV, with good after sales service and practically zero niggles, and a low cost of ownership, they are justified in charging a premium for it. Just the fact that both Innova and Fortuner; branded as an overpriced commodity by many; have long waiting period, indicates that there are buyers who accept these models as desirable and are queuing up to buy them. Well you have both lower cost and more feature rich options in SUV, but are they selling? No.

[D4d-maniac]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

900-1000 units sold, so ? IMHO, its no measure for a great product. By that standards, Alto, Dzire, Swift, i10, WAgon R, i20 are great vehicles for our market. Innova sells 4000 units almost every month at a high price point for its class.

1) Reliability. If we take into consideration cars from Maruti, almost all of them are reliable. No big feat for Fortuner to be reliable. Even the Hondas' are known to be reliable. You will still find the first generation city to be running fine on Indian roads.
Yes, Fortuner might last over 3 lakh kms. But if we take reliability, many products are reliable.

2) Yes, its a positive, but not comfort. Space is aplently ( but even the Endy has it )

4) That is a prerequisite nowadays.

5) I was never able to find out a good driving position. However, I will admit that I am always more comfortable finding driving positions in low slung cars that high set vehicles.

The points I am trying to convey:

B) NO EURO NCAP RATING FOR INNOVA OR FORTUNER. The current Ford Endy is based on Ranger, which scored 2/5 in Euro NCAP in 2008. Why so ? Even small cars now have EuroNCAP rating, why not these cars ? I am eager to see how these cars perform. .

IMO reliability is the most important factor. For people who have something else to do with their lives besides going to the service center, this is important. And yes when it is a 5 lakh hatchback with so few mechanicals to go wrong it might not be a big deal but for a true blue off road SUV reliability plays an important factor.

What i meant by comfort was in comparison to the endeavour because of its high floor and knee up seeting position.

Good after sales is definitely a pre requisite but not something we always get.

In no way i meant to imply that Fortuner was more comfortable than low slung sedans, i was merely comparing it to the competition.

Just to point out EuroNCAP rating is just for products which are sold in europe. Toyota Fortuner, Innova and Hilux are not sold in any part of europe hence the lack of any rating.

Originally Posted by mayankjha1806

Who does not want the cars to be cheaper, heck i want the beamers to be cheaper. Its ones own individual's perception that some model/make is expensive/cheap.

I am also in the queue to request Totota to make Fortuner cheaper but i know its not gonna happen as market thinks differently. No wonder Fortuner keeps doing good-excellent numbers month over month. This moth Fortuner sales figures are better then the last month.

So for some its expensive, and for someone else its Value for Money.

As someone who bought one recently said, give me another option of a SUV of the same size/space/ruggedness/Reliable/wide A.S.S/Diesel for a lesser price i am there with my cheque book.

And i would agree there are none.

Sir, your opinion is bang on target. This is exactly what i have been trying to convey with my earlier posts.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

Good point in mentioning the XUV. Lets take the XUV into consideration since it looks like the most VFM deal now.

* Looks = Fortuner wins
* Space = Fortuner wins
* Reliability = Fortuner wins
* Brand image = Fortuner wins
* Performance = XUV wins
* Ride & handling = XUV wins
* Creature comforts = XUV wins
* Safety features = XUV wins

Its a tie. But then look at the price. More than 10 lakhs difference! Does not that make the Fortuner look overpriced??? The XUV offers everything what the Fortuner does except brand value & off road ability. And for these 2 aspects, Toyota charges 10 lakhs more!

TIE???? There is no tie. What is the point of having all those electrical gadgets in your vehicle when you know they are bound to fail some day.
I am quoting an extract from the official TeamBHP review by our moderators.

"Even on our test car, the electronics were acting funny from time to time. Once, after switching the ESP off, we couldn’t figure out how to switch it back on. Ditto for the hill descent control. On another occasion, the rear air-con button refused to activate air-conditioning at the back. Strangely, after a while (that included engine switch off and restart), these controls were back to normal."

This is the state of XUV Test car. I am sorry to say there is no tie.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

People praise the legendary D-4D engine. Sorry to say, i dont think the engine is all that great. Performance is not that good compared to competitors, NVH is bad & when it comes to reliability, my innova's engine has always had problems of black smoke. On the other hand, my scorpio has never had any engine issues.

D-4d is a gem of an engine with enough low end grunt, negligible turbo lag and sufficient top end to get the fortuner to 180+ speeds besides giving great fuel efficiency. What more do you want from an engine!!
Infact this the first time that i have heard that the engine is no good.

[shankar.balan]

you're probably right at that. we guys here in India do tend to compromise quite a lot especially when it comes to paying premia for quality and/ or niggle free experience. to us it is all about what we initially pay - not about the overall costs of medium to long term ownership - and during that ownership we do tend to think that we can cobble along with jerry built solutions instead of closing in on the root cause and changing a part if needed. probably springs from the hardwired "jugaad" angle. if it serves the purpose then get by somehow is the order of the day. it is not wrong - it is just how we are.

in ref to buying the lowest trim of a certain size/ segment - that is about our desire to show the world that we have arrived, nothing else. We dont want to be seen around in a "hatch" however hot it may be - we would prefer the standard exec sedan because it confers a certain status on account of "3 box" construction and size. This sort of thinking results in the corollary about size = road presence being very important to us.

Originally Posted by Aroy

The price and VFM are in the eye of the beholder. Both good manufacturing practice and stringent QA cost money, a lot of money. All of us are cribbing of the niggles faced in Tata and M&M products, but still buy them. Would we pay more for better QA and better manufacturing. I do not think so. Well a few would not mind paying but if faced with a bill of 2L or more, most of us would prefer the niggles to higher cost. Facilities not withstanding, most of the sales are at the lowest trim level. What sells is the lowest cost offering at a given segment/size, and not the most comfortable at one segment lower.

Faced with a choice of a lower cost more problematic car and a higher cost, practically zero niggle car, how many would go for the higher cost option? Sales figures show that only an insignificant minority does.

So if Toyota gets a small SUV, with good after sales service and practically zero niggles, and a low cost of ownership, they are justified in charging a premium for it. Just the fact that both Innova and Fortuner; branded as an overpriced commodity by many; have long waiting period, indicates that there are buyers who accept these models as desirable and are queuing up to buy them. Well you have both lower cost and more feature rich options in SUV, but are they selling? No.

[rambo1o1]

Glad to here about Toyota launching a suv in the 10 lakh category! we need some more competition.For too long the only offering in this price range was the safari and the Scorpio and now to some extent the XUV.Since its based on the Etios platform i guess we cant expect a good offroader, maybe a good softroader with light offroading capabilities?? Hope Toyota doesn't offer etios like interiors on the suv!

when can we expect the car to hit the road?? 2012 end?? or early 2013??

And coming to the fortuner issue going on here, if its not big,bad and a Toyota it wont sell! The Endeavour came close but since its not a Toyota and its got a bumpy ride its not going to stop customers who are piling up for the T-fort to choose the Endy, whatever amount of limited editions Ford launches!

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by D4d-maniac

TIE???? There is no tie. What is the point of having all those electrical gadgets in your vehicle when you know they are bound to fail some day.
I am quoting an extract from the official TeamBHP review by our moderators.

I have already mentioned that it is okay paying a premium for a reliable vehicle with reliable electronics but is the premium toyota is asking justified?

Isnt 10 lakhs too much to ask for reliability?

[D4d-maniac]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

I have already mentioned that it is okay paying a premium for a reliable vehicle with reliable electronics but is the premium toyota is asking justified?

Isnt 10 lakhs too much to ask for reliability?

Well this is a very childish discussion we are pursuing. 10 lakh extra is not only just for reliability. Fortuner gives you a lot extra. Maybe it is overpriced by a lakh or two. But by no way is it overpriced by 10 lakh.

[jacksons]

It can be Avanza and it fits the price point as its just little shorter than Innova.
I drove it during our trip to Langkawi this June. We were six adults and were fine inside.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by jacksons

It can be Avanza and it fits the price point as its just little shorter than Innova.
I drove it during our trip to Langkawi this June. We were six adults and were fine inside.

Thanks from bringing the thread back to the point! Your post suddenly looked so odd & off-topic after reading the Fortuner reviews & comments. Guys, all those discussions were good and will open up more opinions - so let's shift all those healthy discussions on to the Fortuner face lift thread?

Since Toyota has mentioned that the new SUV will be based on Etios platform, will they bring in another product already available in some markets?

I would like to know what all components will be shared if Etios platform is used - engine, transmission or something more ?

And for those who think Etios platform is a crappy choice, Duster is based on the Logan / Verito platform and it's still rated a GREAT prodcut. So why not the new SUV on Etios platform [YES, the 90 bhp version please & not the 68 bhp one]?

Avenza looks too Tavera'ish from the side view and NOT imposing. I would like to see a TOUGH looking SUV from Toyota.

[SRK]

Check the images in this link:
2012 Toyota Avanza (mini MPV) could come to India

It has styling similar to Etios.
Can this bring back the Qualis days back to Toyota.

People buying the car in this segment won't be actually needing any true SUV characteristics an MPV makes more sense and Toyota already has a product that they can start building and providing to Indians (while keeping the quality in check).

A new product would bring with itself range of new technical problems and I don't think Toyota can afford any more Etios like drama, if it plans to stay in India with its Quality badge. A tried and tested product makes more sense.

[andromeda]

[quote="SRK"
A new product would bring with itself range of new technical problems and I don't think Toyota can afford any more Etios like drama, if it plans to stay in India with its Quality badge. A tried and tested product makes more sense.[/QUOTE]

+1 to that.
After the initial euphoria settled down, its clearly seen that Etios is not getting the numbers that Toyota had expected. It's in a 3rd position after Dzire & Manza and has never managed to get better till date. In fact they are struggling to sell the petrol variants (as everyone else). Note that the only other cars in this segment are the Fiesta Classic and the Aveo.

They might plan an MPV based on the Etios platform (to use up the excess capacity) but it will have good competition from the Ertiga & mini-Xylo (in terms of quality, VFM, interiors, etc). After the XUV launch, M&M will definitely be looking to raise the quality across the board (this was confirmed in another thread as well). So expect a quality/VFM mini-Xylo.

[microaubin]

Toyota will surely find out that unless they offer class leading and lasting interior quality it will be difficult to sell with just the T-badge. Etios and Liva failed to garner sales due this reason while the Innova, Fortuner and Corolla have nice interiors corresponding to their repsective prices.

[1100D]

Toyota is actually equipped to bring in a Sub-10 lakh SUV provided they can do some negotiations with Daihatsu.

This is the SUV they should bring, probably rebadged as a Toyota.

The Daihatsu Terios

[zenren]

Originally Posted by 1100D

Toyota is actually equipped to bring in a Sub-10 lakh SUV provided they can do some negotiations with Daihatsu.

This is the SUV they should bring, probably rebadged as a Toyota.

The Daihatsu Terios

Rebadging is the key. Premier Rio that we see on our roads is actually a 1st gen Terios with the 1.3 MJD Fiat engine. I guess it would have sold well if it didn't carry the Premier tag! I really liked it when I saw it the first time but all my interest faded away the moment I noticed the badge.

There are a lot of interesting Daihatsu kei cars which could sell well in India if they came with the Toyota engines from the Etios.

[MaxTorque]

Looks like everyone is tempted by the demand for Compact SUVs. Already we have half a dozen products in this segment and Toyota intends to join the race. It is good for prospective customers. Hope this time Toyota will not repeat the mistakes they committed in the past (with Etios).