[carwatcher]

Originally Posted by harishpr

My point is simple + let's not shun a product just because its from china. I'm sure that It will be much better than tatas, marutis etc.

+1 to that.
Though OT but I was just waiting for a comment like yours.
Just condemning Chinese products shows our narrow mindedness. I am sure most of the people condemning chinese products would definitely grab one just because of the price as we Indians are not famous for giving preference to quality. We may give preference to Brands blindly but not quality.
As regards Chinese products one of my friend who has recently been on a business trip to China also shared the same views. He also mentioned that in China, they have various levels of quality at different price levels unlike India where the quality in most of the cases just is plain luck factor, price though may be different at various levels. Apart from Tata, Mahindra and Maruti, we anyway are buying products from various countries, so why this differentiation with China, AFAIK Indian govt has not declared China an enemy country, infact it is trying to promote business with China. Bajaj and Heromoto are having manufacturing facilities (or are in the process) in China.
On another note, I also read on T-BHP that Tata Motor's Land Rover Evoque is largely bought in Chinese market. So if one gives quality, people are ready to buy it anywhere.
If you see the most elite products (Apple, Sony, etc) all are
manufactured in China. What does it proves, IMO it proves that its not China which should be associated with low quality, its us who happily import and use cheap quality products (which we even can't manufacture on our own so cheap). One more glaring eg is in the OP where its mentioned that a car costing 3-5 lacs will be a 'premium' hatchback. Any guess in which country on the earth a 'premium' hatchback can be manufactured at that price, and also in which country a car costing 3-5 lacs could be considered as 'premium' hatchback, if at all it is possible?
No offence intended.
Sorry for going OT.

[NinadJoshi]

Originally Posted by harishpr

The world has slowly but surely accepting chinese products whether we like it or not. Infact, most of the gadgets that we use is made in china. The perception of chinese products being low quality is changing.

I agree with you on most counts.

The question is when will China shed its OEM image ? The entire world uses products that are sub-sourced and manufactured in China. Their manufacturing aptitude and capability is undisputed. But how many Chinese brands do we see on the world markets ? Practically none. Just as the perception of 'lack of quality' was/is the biggest bane on the Detroit Big-3 in their battle against the Japanese, the perception of 'low cost low quality' is China's biggest challenge. The only way to overcome this is to actually enter world markets with their own names and brands instead of hiding under well known logos.

Of course this is all couch philosophy, so please take my ignorance with a pinch of salt. The Chinese obviously know what they are doing, but I don't

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

..The quality levels of chinese were never acknowledged by we India's and there are enough examples...

Originally Posted by teamveevee

Let us wait and see how many Indians will buy this chinese product...

Are we taking it for granted that the entire car will be manufactured and shipped from China? Or all the mechanicals & panels will be made there and then brought & assembled in India? Cmon guys, just because these vehicles were designed in China or are already launched in China doesn't mean that we should dislike it.

My thoughts are these cars WILL be locally manufactured in India with a solid level [>80%] of localization at-least. With the current taxes & policies, GM would NOT be able to achieve a great price for these cars if they import a LOT of parts from China!

Originally Posted by hellmet

...With all the rebadging going on in the car industry right now, a day will arrive when one will totally confused which brand to trust and which to avoid since every vendor would be selling the same engine in the same (or another) avatar...

Renault takes its farther and changes the old saying to "Old wine, in the same bottle" with the Micra and Sunny replicas.

Sorry, but I don't find a problem with re-badging too. From a customer point of view, there could be some disagreements, but this saves the company from investing too much into products and make the max bucks out of their investment. And the so-called re-badging is already prevalent in some countries [SX4 is one good example], so why can't it be done in India ?

[funkmeister]

I don't know about the fact that its all Chinese. The interiors have a Cruze-ish touch to it, doesn't it?

[Ashley2]

Originally Posted by funkmeister

I don't know about the fact that its all Chinese. The interiors have a Cruze-ish touch to it, doesn't it?

Attachment 909312

Don't dare to compete with chinese just looking at them. They can take Photo copies even by just seeing them.
Below is a comparo between chinese made one and original Neoplan starliner. Should I tell anything more!

[NinadJoshi]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

Don't dare to compete with chinese just looking at them. They can take Photo copies even by just seeing them.
Below is a comparo between chinese made one and original Neoplan starliner. Should I tell anything more!
Attachment 909330

Correct. I rest my case with these.....

These guys aren't afraid to blatantly plagiarize vehicles from some of the most powerful auto companies in the world, and nobody can do squat against them

[ashutoshb]

Originally Posted by funkmeister

I don't know about the fact that its all Chinese. The interiors have a Cruze-ish touch to it, doesn't it?

Attachment 909312

The photograph you have posted is of Chevrolet Orlando's interiors (Source: Chevrolet Orlando wallpaper # 72 of 90, Interior, MY 2012, 800x600)

Enjoy's interiors look like this (Pictures are of Wuling Hong Guang, on which, the Enjoy is based):

[anu21v]

Just did some research work on SAIC company. Its one of the World's Top 500 Company right now. Don't think that big a company along with another Global BlueChip General Motors (top company for 75 straight years) will tarnish a Brand Name as good as Chevrolet.

if at all GM and SAIC themselves get into IP protection issues with small Chinese manufacturere (read Spark's copy QQ from Chery)....... btw Chery is the same company Tata Motors' Super Premium brand Jaguar/Landrover has just tied up to manufacturer and sell Jags/LR in China.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...er-china-chery

No Point cribbing Chinese Manufacturers, since most Electronics goods (Nokia/Motorola/Dell/Apple/Huawei/Cisco/Siemens) gets manufactured in china and they are not just world class they are world beaters too.

For me its the design that Matters. As Long as designs of the cars are done by GM, doesn't matter who is selling or what brand it is sold under in china or in India.....people said the same thing of Beat and Cruze from Korean Genesis. One drive in the cars tell its pure american.

Swiftnfurious: As far as i know this is no rebadging at all. The design of the car is totally done by GM Engineers. GM has a huge Tehnical Centre in China (one of their top 5) which designs Apart from Chevrolets, Buick, Wuling and Newly launched Brand Baojun. Cars designed on similar platform keep getting launched by different brands across the world.

Read Wiki Article on Maruti Suzuki Esteem quite insightfull.

Also SAIC per se is just a government company (like Maruti in India before 2003) which doesnt have any car designing or manufacturing skills. The designing, Manufacturing and marketing, all are done by their foreign venture Partners. Volkswagen and General Motors are its biggest partner in China. With someone whose associations involves brands like VW and GM, i would be respectful instead of clubbing with spurious Chinese smalltime brands.Everytime I type in Chevrolet Sail, I seem to Find a new country getting added to google search. Its already started getting in huge Global sales number (see Matt's Blog of annual sales top 100). Don't what will happen to its rank once India too is in the list.

If anything I would crib about why we in India Can't design and make things which can not just go across the world and china but also beat china manufacturers in their own country.

[Ashley2]

Originally Posted by carwatcher

+1 to that.
Though OT but I was just waiting for a comment like yours.
Just condemning Chinese products shows our narrow mindedness. I am sure most of the people condemning chinese products would definitely grab one just because of the price as we Indians are not famous for giving preference to quality. We may give preference to Brands blindly but not quality.
.....

Indian market is very strange and tad difficult to understand and it has proved this in several case studies:
Quality over brand:
Mercedes Benz coaches never received well in spite of strong promotion from the company - Travel with the star. People should agree that MB is 5 times bigger than Volvo and by no means comparable to Volvo in brand Value. There were initial pull for MB but was soon rejected by the customers. Infact when Neeta launched initially, they commanded Rs.100 premium than Volvo, for the sake of brand and their CEO told, passengers who cant own a Mercedes Benz car can atleast have a feel of Mercedes Benz in our buses and so we charge more. But how long?
Volvo which never took off in the luxury car market and looked as a primitive brand is doing great business in luxury buses. Here its purely quality and nothing brand. Volvo buses have lived upto the expectation of the Indian customer and going strong day by day. Also MB is clearly in a position to relook into their coaches and are looking for a distant second innings.

Brand over Quality:
Maruti and Hyundai. IMHO, having seen HMI, making cars I can very well say they take the same care in making a Santro/Eon and a Santa Fe/Sonata. No doubt. Their look for quality is too good that they at times look over excited.
But if you look at the numbers, the sales of HMI is not that great which they deserve. Infact they are fighting with Tata's(for ~ 15% MS) inspite of the fact that HMI is in main stream - B segment and have multiple options than TML.

Originally Posted by carwatcher

If you see the most elite products (Apple, Sony, etc) all are
manufactured in China. What does it proves, IMO it proves that its not China which should be associated with low quality, its us who happily import and use cheap quality products (which we even can't manufacture on our own so cheap). ......

We are speaking about inherent Chinese design and not on borrowed ones from Sony/Mac.
If that's the case India is also too good in making quality (more of the word Finesse) cars. Made in India Hyundai's are sold in UK/Australia and throe out Europe there is no complain of quality problems. Here this is same as Sony/Mac made in china.

And finally dear carwatcher, I have only put my views and not completely contradicting each phrase of your replies.

[NinadJoshi]

In the SAIC-GM-Wuling consortium, GM-China holds a 34.0% stake, SAIC 50.1% and Wuling Motors 15.9%. SAIC also has a 50% share in GM India. If anything this indicates to me that the real man of the house here is SAIC, not GM.

So like it or not, the "Enjoy" is a Chinese vehicle trying to make it into India under an American coat. It was designed by a Chinese company (Wuling), it is manufactured by a Chinese company (SAIC) and it is marketed in China not under the GM brand but under the Wuling brand. It is without doubt enjoying great success in China as we speak, and chances are it may well pioneer an MPV segment in India too...but only because it will present itself as a Chevy.

My point is, these Chinese 'OEM's' still do not have it in them to come out in the world market openly as Chinese companies. The 'low cost low quality' perception is still a huge challenge to overcome, and the more they continue to hide behind major names, the more difficult it will be for them to be their own.

On the other hand, even if SAIC decides to manufacture this vehicle in India, it will still be the real McCoy...imagine profits to SAIC for using the well established GM brand to peddle a Chinese design that is manufactured in India. If the vehicle bombs, the GM brand gets tarnished, not SAIC's. If the vehicle has quality issues, GM's manufacturing standards in India get blamed, not SAIC. If the vehicle succeeds, 50% of the profits are SAIC's without doing anything. Can't get better than that

[funkmeister]

Besides the Chinese are famous for the technique of Reverse Engineering. I read an article where an automobile manufacturer asked his engineers and workers to dismantle his new S500. He had to make the first move by breaking a front light or something as the others were reluctant on destroying a Merc.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by NinadJoshi

In the SAIC-GM-Wuling consortium, GM-China holds a 34.0% stake, SAIC 50.1% and Wuling Motors 15.9%. SAIC also has a 50% share in GM India. If anything this indicates to me that the real man of the house here is SAIC, not GM.

Well, the designs i think were always from GM even in minority partnership. If you see the current Structure of Wuling it says 50.1% SAIC; 45% - GM and just 5% for Wuling company.

Everyone knows for sure it takes time to acquire the car designing skills. If SAIC or Wuling were so skillfull they would never require VW or GM for their Join Venture partnership. (case in point -Tata, which is still believed to be on steeper side of learning curve. Their reputation improved a lot after Manza and Aria) To My understanding GM in this case and VW in SAIC/VW venture are the technical/Design providers in the venture.

Just in case you want to further figure out the designing skills of Wuling or SAIC you should check out the genesis of biggest selling wuling car (the Bread Van) check it out on web resources; to me it looks like its there because of Suzuki/Daewoo/GM Joint partnership and for sure is a distant cousin of Suzuki Van.(check out Wiki on Suzuki Van)

Originally Posted by funkmeister

Besides the Chinese are famous for the technique of Reverse Engineering. I read an article where an automobile manufacturer asked his engineers and workers to dismantle his new S500. He had to make the first move by breaking a front light or something as the others were reluctant on destroying a Merc.

I would suspect the corporate who are game for world level competition and ranking wont get involved with IP infringements and reverse engineering and it would mostly be done by small manufacturers. Plus since they can always ask the best technology from their Venture partners, whats the point of taking this extra risk and hassle.

[NinadJoshi]

Originally Posted by anu21v

Well, the designs i think were always from GM even in minority partnership. .

Chevrolet-Wuling CN100 /Hongguang will take on the Innovas and Ertigas of this world! | IndianCarsBikes.in

"General Motors India displayed the Chevrolet CN100 a.k.a. the Wuling Hongguang MPV at the ongoing 2012 Indian Auto Expo. This MPV which has Chinese roots is originally designed and manufactured by an SAIC group company, Wuling, but is also sold across many countries of the world as a rebadged Chevrolet CN100 MPV. For the Indian market too, Chevrolet will use its bow tie on the bonnet and position this MPV as an alternate to the likes of the Maruti Suzuki Ertiga and the Toyota Innova."



GM to adapt China vans for India

"General Motors Co (GM) will sell Chinese-designed minivans under its Chevrolet brand in India starting next year as the automaker expands in Asia's second-fastest growing major economy."

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by NinadJoshi

Chevrolet-Wuling CN100 /Hongguang will take on the Innovas and Ertigas of this world! | IndianCarsBikes.in

This is a news article without much support in claiming so. Moreso Since SAIC is in joint participation with VW and GM both, They won't have any technology/Design facility of their own. ( I couldn't find one). Wuling Design has to be very well supported by GM Engineers/Engineering considering GM is the only partner with technology. I understand one can say say its non-Chevrolet, but one can't say its non-GM product.

Originally Posted by NinadJoshi

GM to adapt China vans for India

"General Motors Co (GM) will sell Chinese-designed minivans under its Chevrolet brand in India starting next year as the automaker expands in Asia's second-fastest growing major economy."

I have read about this third product (After a Car and MPV), but minivan is supposedly different than this "Enjoy MPV". This third product is supposedly a EECO fighter and lies in Suzuki-EECO/Suzuki-van category and suppose to be much smaller in size with middle sliding doors. Curiously I haven't heard about it much after the initial few press speculations and this was not even show-cased in Auto-Expo 2012..

[NinadJoshi]

Originally Posted by anu21v

This is a news article without much support in claiming so. .

If I may quote your own words just a couple of postings above : "Well, the designs i think were always from GM even in minority partnership." .... "Wuling Design has to be very well supported by GM Engineers/Engineering considering GM is the only partner with technology." That to me is pure personal speculation if anything.

In any case, it seems we should agree to disagree on some issues amicably. I am sure I am not alone in my opinion that this is a low cost Chinese vehicle that is trying to piggyback itself into India on a pre-existing well known brand.

Nothing wrong in the business rationale behind it. If I manufactured low cost "janata" scooters under the "Bajrang Bali" brand in India with great success, and I also happened to own a majority stake in Vespa, I would, at some point of time surely try to introduce my "Bajrang Bali" scooters in Europe with the Vespa badge too

SAIC owns 50% of GM-India, and 51% of GM-China. This is Red Dragon stuff, so good luck trying to get any credible (true) data on design, quality, manufacturing and such.