[wilful]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Reading about the pipe line, I am flabbergasted! 3 sub 4 m sedans in the next 3-4 years?? What's TATA planning to do with these?

Yes - I also had a sense of let down, looking at the pipeline.
I do wish they would come out with some desirable designs - maybe a small SUV on the lines of the Ecosport.

[scopriobharath]

Originally Posted by Theyota

Do we really need a thread to bash Tata Motors based on a TOI article of all things? Keep it classy folks.

It is NOT a TATA bashing thread. People (future customers) are just expressing how Tata must progress in the coming years, so that they also could probably own a Tata product some day with a fuss-free ownership. Most of us are probably not associated with the Auto industry as stakeholders but more of Enthisiasts. If Enthusiasts can pin point the way TML should progress, why cant CEOs, IIT/IIM candidates, Market analysts and other senior level people who are hired for business improvement and that is thier primary bread-winning job start with customer service. I feel Tata has enough products in most/all segments Nano, Indica, Indigo CS-XL, Manza, Sumo/Grande/Movus , Safari/Storme and Aria. They are in each and every segment.

Someone might have a brainwave that Tata is not there in Supercar/sportscar segment. They might launch a Nissan 370Z competition for even say 20 lacs but it would still not fly out of the showrooms. Hyundai would take this oppurtunity to Offer an i20 based Veloster and make it a cash cow. I am a prospective customer of TML. If TML wants my money, they should offer what i want.

Again - I am an Innova fan. If Tata can offer Maruti levels of quality and reliability and customer care, I will buy the Aria without looking back. Mahindra offers very good customer care and Anand himself would look into an issue even for a Verito. That is customer service. Secondly, someone mentions that Anand himself reviews daily the issues that were reported but not resovled by the customer care.

I love the Aria and I love Tata but unfortunately, if an Aria deserts me on a highway, my familiy would curse me for not going for more reliable brands,

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Reading about the pipe line, I am flabbergasted! 3 sub 4 m sedans in the next 3-4 years?? What's TATA planning to do with these?

Again - That is the lack of planing and foresight. Tata Grande eventhough is bigger than Ertiga, People still flock to showrooms for Ertiga, but no one cares a damn about Grande.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by scopriobharath

It is NOT a TATA bashing thread. People (future customers) are just expressing how Tata must progress in the coming years, so that they also could probably own a Tata product some day with a fuss-free ownership. Most of us are probably not associated with the Auto industry as stakeholders but more of Enthisiasts. If Enthusiasts can pin point the way TML should progress, why cant CEOs, IIT/IIM candidates, Market analysts and other senior level people who are hired for business improvement and that is thier primary bread-winning job start with customer service. I feel Tata has enough products in most/all segments Nano, Indica, Indigo CS-XL, Manza, Sumo/Grande/Movus , Safari/Storme and Aria. They are in each and every segment.

Someone might have a brainwave that Tata is not there in Supercar/sportscar segment. They might launch a Nissan 370Z competition for even say 20 lacs but it would still not fly out of the showrooms. Hyundai would take this oppurtunity to Offer an i20 based Veloster and make it a cash cow. I am a prospective customer of TML. If TML wants my money, they should offer what i want.

Again - I am an Innova fan. If Tata can offer Maruti levels of quality and reliability and customer care, I will buy the Aria without looking back. Mahindra offers very good customer care and Anand himself would look into an issue even for a Verito. That is customer service. Secondly, someone mentions that Anand himself reviews daily the issues that were reported but not resovled by the customer care.

I love the Aria and I love Tata but unfortunately, if an Aria deserts me on a highway, my familiy would curse me for not going for more reliable brands,


Again - That is the lack of planing and foresight. Tata Grande eventhough is bigger than Ertiga, People still flock to showrooms for Ertiga, but no one cares a damn about Grande.

Sorry, and I mean no offence, but your post is replete with very dubious and questionable (dare I say 'unquestioned'?!) stereotypes about car brands and their virtues or lack thereof.

In any case: to buy and drive a car is to take a big RISK, that is after all why the whole process is so engaging and involving!

It sounds to me like too many members of the Indian car-buying public don't get this, and prefer the herd-like love of the illusion of risk-free car ownership, with just 2 or 3 East Asian companies laughing undeservedly all the way to their big banks.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by gemi_kk

Winning and Cost effective often do not go hand in hand.

If its not cost effective, then how will it win in the market?

They don't need a managerial CEO. They need a CEO who is an architect/designer. They need someone with good taste and who is obsessed with quality.

Product design is driven by customer's taste and not the CEO's taste.

Meaning. Currently, there is No demand for tata cars. So *No production*. Bench in manufacturing.

No demand? Ic
Are you suggesting they manufacture cars and park them in open fields? lol

Not at all sufficient for R&D.

How did you figure that?

[scopriobharath]

Originally Posted by desdemona

Sorry, and I mean no offence, but your post is replete with very dubious and questionable (dare I say 'unquestioned'?!) stereotypes about car brands and their virtues or lack thereof.
In any case: to buy and drive a car is to take a big RISK, that is after all why the whole process is so engaging and involving!
It sounds to me like too many members of the Indian car-buying public don't get this, and prefer the herd-like love of the illusion of risk-free car ownership, with just 2 or 3 East Asian companies laughing undeservedly all the way to their big banks.

Lots of car buyers i guess 1000 have taken the risk and bought Aria. I guess out of that 1000 most of them are unhappy or selling the car. BHPian Indian21r has faced so many issues with two Arias. He is in Pune and Aria is manufactured in Pune. TML could not supply parts to his service station 10 kms away, that too for thier flagship product. I am personally happy with the sales figure of Aria but unfortunately the company is not happy with that number of people buying it. XUV5OO the main competitor to Aria outsells Aria 1:500 .

I dont think it is bad or too much to ask for risk free ownership when one spends hard earned taxed money on a car. Mahindra is able to offer far more better cars than tata, for which saes numbers are a proof. On a smilar note, Would TML be okay, if i pay 50% of the money of an Aria in duplicate or fake curency? So when I am paying top dollar for an Aria, i dont think it is wrong or bad to expect a good quality product.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by scopriobharath

Lots of car buyers i guess 1000 have taken the risk and bought Aria. I guess out of that 1000 most of them are unhappy or selling the car. BHPian Indian21r has faced so many issues with two Arias. He is in Pune and Aria is manufactured in Pune. TML could not supply parts to his service station 10 kms away, that too for thier flagship product. I am personally happy with the sales figure of Aria but unfortunately the company is not happy with that number of people buying it. XUV5OO the main competitor to Aria outsells Aria 1:500 .

I dont think it is bad or too much to ask for risk free ownership when one spends hard earned taxed money on a car. Mahindra is able to offer far more better cars than tata, for which saes numbers are a proof. On a smilar note, Would TML be okay, if i pay 50% of the money of an Aria in duplicate or fake curency? So when I am paying top dollar for an Aria, i dont think it is wrong or bad to expect a good quality product.

As i said: there are several questionable stereotypes at play here.

(a) that Mahindra's higher sales are a testament to their better cars, or better service. Please do consider the very serious large scale not-niggles-but-basic-engineering-defects in the XUV500 when launched at cynically predatory prices so as to create a herd-effect. Mahindra sells better than Tata because there has been until the duster/terrano no competition , and because they know how to do "desi macho" styling while Tata went too-subtle/quiet-for-India-today in their design choices for the Aria and Storme

(b) The Aria and the Storme (and the Vista and the Manza) already ARE well worth considering as "good (enough?)quality" products IF you are only willing to give them a chance, rather than regurgitate stereotypes about the different car brands and their virtues/failures. Even when the zest, bolt and nexon come, and even when the ongoing improvements in dealers and ASS happen, some people will keep bashing Tata based on old prejudices.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by desdemona

As i said: there are several questionable stereotypes at play here.

(a) that Mahindra's higher sales are a testament to their better cars, or better service. Please do consider the very serious large scale not-niggles-but-basic-engineering-defects in the XUV500 when launched at cynically predatory prices so as to create a herd-effect. Mahindra sells better than Tata because there has been until the duster/terrano no competition , and because they know how to do "desi macho" styling while Tata went too-subtle/quiet-for-India-today in their design choices for the Aria and Storme...

Looking at your post, seems Mahindra has done some serious crimes.

1. They designed a car which Indian customers liked

2. They launched it at a freaking awesome price

3. They kept working on the niggles & issues and rectified it

4. They treated Indian customers like kings (Anand Mahindra needs to be shot dead for this) and provided extensive support

5. Finally, they managed to garner & sustain great numbers and overtook TATA!!

Cmon, please!! Mahindra is smarter than TATA in identifying the parameters relevant to Indian market and they reap the benefits of their efforts. This is a market where ONLY the fittest survives; so if TATA has to get a pie - they need to work out.

Edit::

Originally Posted by desdemona

...(b) The Aria and the Storme (and the Vista and the Manza) already ARE well worth considering as "good (enough?)quality" products IF you are only willing to give them a chance, rather than regurgitate stereotypes about the different car brands and their virtues/failures...

Frankly, I have a lot of confidence on Storme seeing all the recent ownership reports. Now if there are a bunch who can risk and buy Aria and give us their ownership reports, a lot of people will have confidence in that as well. Now, the question is who wants to bite the first bullet? Definitely NOT me!!

[wilful]

I was about to comment on similar lines.
I'd love it if more auto companies launch desirable/new products at "cynically predatory prices so as to create a herd-effect". Would be great for the early bird customers.
I believe in horses for courses (follow it at work for the products that I handle). If the Indian customer is wowed by over the top styling/desi macho - so be it. Personally I may prefer a more minimalistic look but that is just me.
I have a lot of respect and goodwill for the Tata group (have so many in the family working for the group). I am sure a whole lot of us would be delighted if Tata Motors manage to get their act together and set the charts on fire. But I will also speak my mind as a customer on what I feel is right or wrong.

[vivekz]

I'm sure some tough decisions will be taken by Mr. Mistry. He is known to be a bottomlines person.

I feel time is ripe to think about killing the Indica name. With Vista already catering to erstwhile Indica customers (incl. taxi segment), having one more product Bolt in the same segment makes no sense (esp when Bolt is based on Vista). Seems Tata wants to position Bolt as a enthusiast/ young at heart person's choice with lot of attention on Revotron and other tech bits.

I was just reading the sales report and saw the dismal sales which Indica+Indigo achieves. I'm sure having the only the latter with some price correction will not impact the combined sales negatively.

Originally Posted by Mpower

If its not cost effective, then how will it win in the market?

Volumes Dear. Volumes!! ours is price sensitive market. Again our market hates cheap products. Eg: Nano.

Originally Posted by Mpower

Product design is driven by customer's taste and not the CEO's taste.

A person with good taste is very much necessary to make good products. Person who is targeting just profits wont be able to fix a brand like Tata.

Originally Posted by Mpower

No deman? Ic
Are you suggesting they manufacture cars and park them in open fields? lol

Nope, I am asking them to improvise.
Never take a back step. Its the first step to failure.
Any Ideas? Use prototype models. Because, only they can give you a mild boost to your sales.
And these models are yours. Presenting them in expo's isn't the sole reason for which they were made. Use the shells, use your current engines.

Originally Posted by Mpower

How did you figure that?

XUV R&D cost is 600+Crores. (Around 2 years ago.)
Xylo's is ~ 300 Crores. (Around 2+ years ago.)
Tata Aria's is 600 Million $'s. (Around 2+ years ago.)
With 1500 Crores, for 8-10 products, with rising commodity prices and labor costs, rising infra costs, hmm. Do you think, it is sufficient?

[da_lowrider]

Originally Posted by gemi_kk

A person with good taste is very much necessary to make good products. Person who is targeting just profits wont be able to fix a brand like Tata.



XUV R&D cost is 600+Crores. (Around 2 years ago.)
Xylo's is ~ 300 Crores. (Around 2+ years ago.)
Tata Aria's is 600 Million $'s. (Around 2+ years ago.)
With 1500 Crores, for 8-10 products, with rising commodity prices and labor costs, rising infra costs, hmm. Do you think, it is sufficient?

Here's my problem with the bit about the CEO, Tata had such a person at the helm in the form of Ratan Tata, -taking nothing away from him - who governed the co. passionately, developed products with passion, but also oversaw the period where Tata fell horribly behind due a number of reasons that can only be fixed as a part of a managerial function.

With regards to the R&D cost, here's the thing, the example you have cited is of two entirely different platforms, where the cost involved is bound to be higher. TM on the other hand is working on a modular platform, that should in theory lend itself to a large no. of products, one reason for developing an AMP is to keep costs in check.

[scopriobharath]

Originally Posted by desdemona

(b) The Aria and the Storme (and the Vista and the Manza) already ARE well worth considering as "good (enough?)quality" products IF you are only willing to give them a chance, rather than regurgitate stereotypes about the different car brands and their virtues/failures. Even when the zest, bolt and nexon come, and even when the ongoing improvements in dealers and ASS happen, some people will keep bashing Tata based on old prejudices.

Simple - I do not say that XUV5OO is as reliable as Toyota and rolled out of the factory glitch free. I am ready to live with Niggles as long as they are acknowledged and fixed. Some Engines were opened and got glitches in as early as 1000 kms. Mahindra acknowledged it and replaced the engine free of cost under warranty in a week i guess.The initial batch of XUVs had an extended one year of warranty provided, which was NOT provided with Aria. Indian21r's Aria was left dead in the A.S.S for weeks without any proper support. For a flagship product, Tata could send some Engineers and Mechanics to the dealership, merely 10 kms away from their factory to analyse and fix the problem. If Tata had done that and provided a standby vehicle, that would build the feel good factor and goodwill for Tata.

No XUV5OO is known to be stuck for want of parts / knowldge etc/ . Arias have been long enough in the service station to conclude that no proper support is avaialble. Mahindra addressed this problem through RMs and purple clubs available for thier flaship products like XUV/Rexton etc.

I am an innova fan, but i am willing to buy a scorpio as i have confidence, M&M will acknowledge and resolve any issue/niggle. I somehow do not have the same confidence on Tata till date. I pray they develop customer relations strategy.

[madhu33]

Recently on teambhp there has been various threads related to cars / other topics around Tata Motors. It is indeed painful to see how each one of those threads become no more than a TATA BASHING thread.
Tata Motors surely must have done a lot of wrongs to have it against them.

I have had both good and bad bits of the ownership of the TATA MANZA.

My Experience now at 40000 plus kms with Tata manza(2011 - till date - 42000kms) viz a viz my previous Swift(2007-2011-sold @ ~37000kms) and ALto(2003-2007-sold at ~33000 kms) :

1)Both swift and Alto had numerous rattles on the inside at the mentioned age Whereas MANZA is still SOOOOO QUIET and feels so new and from higher segment than that of swift and Alto. This is my personal experience and observation from ownership of the mentioned products.
All 3 cars driven solo by me . Same routes and mind you Mumbai roads have only worsened in last 2-3 years.

2)Mileage : daily traffic home(Goregaon west) to Office (Bandra west) and back - peak rush hour traffic both ways .
Manza (diesel) : ~13-15kmpl (depending on weather - summers or winters)
Swift (petrol):~10.5-11kmpl
Alto (petrol):~12-13kmpl
And this with the fact that the Manza weighs a whopping 1250-1300kgs(with added accessories)

3)I find the CONCORDE- WORLI - TATA service centre and service standards FAR better than that of VITESSE/SPECTRA of MARUTI.
In fact thankfully there is no taxi crowd(unlike Toyota(once visited with friend) and Hyundai(next to my gym) ... 2 brands now a favorite with taxi drivers...read.. may be more reliable , longer life and more fuel efficient cars). In my almost 3 years of ownership, i hardly remember encountering any taxi drivers during the service station visits. I am now sort of spoilt by all the pampering i get at CONCORDE. last 2 services they have picked up the car from my office in the mornings and dropped it back in the evening.
Interior cleaning and Exterior washing quality is a 10 out of 10.

4)Overall the experience so far has been much much better than the previous ones with ALTO and SWIFT.
And yes the MANZA feels like a segment higher to SWIFT & SWIFT DZIRE in many many aspects. (again a personal opinion..No offense meant to anyone)

4)At around the same time period of ownership with Alto(nervous on highways) and SWIFT(due to various rattles and extremely cramped seats) i had to force myself for an upgrade, but with the MANZA now at nearly 3 years i don't feel the need of an upgrade. At the time of purchase the intention was to was to keep it for 3 years. but now at 3 years it feels good enough for another 2-3years. And with my driving style i feel it speaks a lot about the Manza's quality & sturdiness

I am a Manager- International sales . My Job involves lot of frequent overseas travel to many developed,underdeveloped as well as third world countries. I have to point out that having home grown auto giants such as Maruti , Tata and Mahindra has been very very crucial to Indian Economy attain whatever little bit respectable stage it is ..today as compared to other third world economies.

[Wanderers]

Originally Posted by madhu33

Recently on teambhp there has been various threads related to cars / other topics around Tata Motors. It is indeed painful to see how each one of those threads become no more than a TATA BASHING thread.

Hi Madhu,

I do not find much wrong in Tata Cars. Well the problem happens to all the brand but at the end, how you handle the customer & solve the problem is taken in account.

Not all dealers of Tatas are like Concorde-Mumbai, which earlier, was a Tata owned Company itself.

I had given serious thought about buying Aria (backed by good discount) last year as against Innova/ Fortuner but the Sales team lacked awareness about the product/features so I feared worse for the service & most important break-downs.
At the end the perception of the customer also matters as not all may know that Tata have brought Land Rover Experience into Aria and its not an offshoot of Safari.

[madhu33]

Originally Posted by Wanderers

Hi Madhu,

I do not find much wrong in Tata Cars. Well the problem happens to all the brand but at the end, how you handle the customer & solve the problem is taken in account.

Hi Wanderer
i have had problems see post #1457 in below link
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/official-new-car-reviews/68355-tata-indigo-manza-test-drive-review-98.html. but thankfully for me , they were attended promptly and to my satisfaction.

Originally Posted by Wanderers

Not all dealers of Tatas are like Concorde-Mumbai, which earlier, was a Tata owned Company itself.

My experience with OM sai motors - kandivli and Wasan motors have also been good (although not as good as the CONCORDE as you mention but still nothing to complaint about).

Originally Posted by Wanderers

I had given serious thought about buying Aria (backed by good discount) last year as against Innova/ Fortuner but the Sales team lacked awareness about the product/features so I feared worse for the service & most important break-downs.

Yes i agree, it is imaginable- the sales men being off focus with the ARIA, but ASS experience still could have been good enough.
Nevertheless, ARIA cannot be an INNOVA or a FORTUNER type peace of mind EVER. It has its own share of advantages too over an Innova and Fortuner.