[vinit.merchant]

Seriously, what % would the private cars be contributing to Delhi pollution? I do not think much. Because I read someone's post on this thread about the 21k litres of diesel consumed by the genset in a months use. How many commercial properties in and around Delhi? Do the math.

So according to me, private cars do not produce the pollution that the NGT fears and is trying to combat. But then this is the easiest.

Who will go around trying to make electricity available 24/7.
Who will ensure that the puc and road worthy certificate to busses and trucks is issued based on facts and not bribes.
Let's ban >x years vehicles across board and go to sleep till the next rating of the world's most polluted city comes out.

[autocrat]

Originally Posted by bosporus

To put the number above in perspective for you, if those 5,000 employees had a diesel car, and drove just 1,200 kms per month (very low, if you ask me) in a car that gave an average mileage of 16kmpl, those same employee would be burning 3,75,000 litres of fuel in that same month.

I'm not disagreeing on your point of regulating gen-sets, just saying that we should not underestimate the quantum of the pollution caused by our individual vehicles, and how it all adds up.

I agree, but we all need some means to get to office. To assume all 5000 run 10+ year old polluting diesels is not right.

The point I am trying to make is, if power generation is adequate and is cheap, the need to run such captives will be less.

Also, absence of fast, reliable and convenient public transport is also a factor.

I lived in Montreal for a year, used only public transport for office commute, and never felt that I need a car, even in the harshest -40 winters. And it cost only $72 a month for unlimited trips

[300 KMPH]

Originally Posted by rohanjf

I agree with your thoughts. I have one question though. How many models came with CRDI engines in 2005 (among mass market cars)? Most diesel models on sale back then, had 1.7, 1.9 or higher capacity NA engines.

Haha. Actually what I mean is after the Swift, many hatchbacks opted for CRDIs and since this new rule will work for a considerable time, it won't be good cuz modern day CRDIs are not that polluting

[prakhar1998]

Lets consider some other aspects due to which the pollution levels in the city are rising:

1. Long jams with horrible average speeds- Cars just stand there burning fuels, for hours on end. Reasons for this are numerous. Bad, broken tarmac, ill designed roads, road encroachment, under provision of public transport, no traffic sense, frequent car breakdowns. Additionally, barely any cars have start stop technology and drivers ( especially cab) couldn't bother to shut the engine. Tolls like DND have kilometres long jam. They are supposed to ease congestion but actually are causing it as people have to wait so long in the que. The DND has already broken even, why the Toll?

2. Poor pollution check facilities and improper checking- First and foremost, the required pollution standards are laughable. Cars perform way better, at least on paper than what is required. Untrained, petrol pump employees test the car with uncalibrated equipment.

Slip a 100 rupee note into his pocket, and he'll happily manage to skew your results by either not putting in the sensor properly or what not. Then, the police rarely check your pollution certificate which in any case is unreliable.

What we need is a centralised pollution checking mechanism, something like MOT of UK that not only checks how much your car is emitting, but also how fit your car is to be driven. This way, unfit cars will be deemed road unworthy and trust me, will lead to so many cars being taken off the road in Delhi.

IDK why the government is taking such irrational measures. If a car is passing the pollution test (ehm), It is roadworthy. If a car is serviced regularly and maintained properly, it will certainly fall under the pollution requirements.

Just make the real culprits face the brunt, and not take irrational decisions that are just sugar coated and please the public.

This is not eradicating the problem from the root. What statistic says that cars greater than 10 years of age pollute more?

[mustangboss302]

The rules in America and other countries say that a vehicle has to go for a fitness test every year after it completes 5 years of life which makes sense. Also, they still enjoy the ride on the Vintage and Classics Like Chargers / Camaros / Cadillacs / Duesenberg that they have preserved for ages and a whole lot of car enthusiasts in America love to have them in their garages. The programs on Discovery Turbo shows how much people spend on restoring the old cars. The other cause to pollution in Delhi is some trucks that enter Delhi are overloaded, some run on adulterated fuel and Delhi does not have a by-pass so they enter Delhi to go to some other state. If a truck has to go to say Palwal from Chandigarh will have no other route but to enter from Alipur and go through Burari, Majnu Ka Tila, Civil Lines, ITO, Ashram, New Friends Colony, Sarita Vihar and Badarpur in Delhi plus the Whole of Faridabad. Similarly, if a truck has to go from ICD Tughlakabad, to Chandigarh, it will have to take the same route back. The Maruti Trucks from Gurgaon to Chandigarh take the route from Dhaula Kuan and cross Rajauri Garden, Punjabi Bagh, Shalimar Bagh, Wazirpur to finally get to GT road or Alipur road. Honda plant in Surajpur also would take the Kalindi Kunj route via nehru place, chirag dilli, panchsheel, IIT, munirka, vasant vihar and mahipalpur to go to Gurgaon. or the outer ring road. Hence all the CITY ROADS are choked due to no by-pass road available. The ISBTs also are at a place that can be called east central Delhi so the 2500 odd daily inter-state buses also pollute. A lower middle class fellow with 2 kids earns around 30K in a month and suddenly wakes up to the news that he will not be able to drive his 1999 Maruti 800 running on CNG to work because of this stupid ban when his decently maintained 800 pollutes less than a new or 4 years old Indica emitting black smoke or a tata maxi mini running on CNG but emitting white smoke(saw these two polluters in the morning today). If he is on rent and he has to pay the school fees of his kids and his wife is not earning, will never be able to pay new car EMIs in today's date in Delhi for sure. He will per-force have to use public transport and loose precious time that he would save using his own transport and spent with his family. He will be weather beaten even if he buys a 2 wheeler and would not be able to take his family of four together as two wheelers will only be able to transport only 2 persons. Think Twice before you act NGT. You might be playing with someone's life and deprive a family of the joy of being together. Also think of a 65 years old retired person who might own a petrol vehicle nearing 15 years age and his children not living with him. Where will he earn money to pay EMIs for his new car to go to Doctors or his social gathering for which he maintained his car thinking that he would use it for the time he is able to drive it as the banks don't finance a person more than 58 years of age. Baseless and hap-hazard decision by the NGT to ban at least 15 years old petrol vehicles.

[jfxavier]

Originally Posted by prakhar1998

This is certainly not a solution. What we need is Euro 4, or even 5 implemented ASAP.

Age and pollution are certainly not directly related. An old car that is well maintained, will emit much less than a newer one in which is improperly maintained and in which incomplete combustion is taking place.

Most of all, implementing this is next to impossible. How are they planning to monitor the lakhs of vehicles that cross borders into Delhi everyday?

No one wants to be left behind in the "ban" business.
Technology is available to check the pollution from a vehicle and that should be the sole criteria of decision whether the vehicle can run or not.
If you consider the carbon footprint in renewing vehicles every 10th year, the idea will not be so "green" anymore.

[vinayrathore]

My 10 year old Accent Viva CRDi that I have so religiously maintained till now is of nowhere today. I shifted to Bangalore last year and brought my Accent along because of its small size, fuel efficiency and left my Xylo (now sold) back in Delhi. Now the Karnataka RTO issues and this ban has pushed me in a soup. Cant drive in Bangalore with a peace of mind and cant send it back to Delhi.

Why should I be forced to sell it at half the worth in a third party state and buy a new car when its serving me well and does not supposedly pollute more than most of other sources?

Should'nt the Govt first fix what falls under its own purview to curb this pollution menace like the points raised by Prakhar above before it goes on dictating such bans?

[jfxavier]

Originally Posted by vinayrathore

My 10 year old Accent Viva CRDi that I have so religiously maintained till now is of nowhere today. I shifted to Bangalore last year and brought my Accent along because of its small size, fuel efficiency and left my Xylo (now sold) back in Delhi. Now the Karnataka RTO issues and this ban has pushed me in a soup. Cant drive in Bangalore with a peace of mind and cant send it back to Delhi.

Why should I be forced to sell it at half the worth in a third party state and buy a new car when its serving me well and does not supposedly pollute more than most of other sources?

Should'nt the Govt first fix what falls under its own purview to curb this pollution menace like the points raised by Prakhar above before it goes on dictating such bans?

I think this directive cannot be implemented and its just a matter of time before someone sensible goes to court over it.
Making a new car creates as much carbon pollution as driving it, so it's often better to keep your old banger on the road than to upgrade to a greener model.
Despite common claims to contrary – the embodied emissions of a car typically rival the exhaust pipe emissions over its entire lifetime.
With this in mind, unless you do very high mileage or have a real gas-guzzler, it generally makes sense to keep your old car for as long as it is reliable – and to look after it carefully to extend its life as long as possible. If you make a car last to 200,000 miles rather than 100,000, then the emissions for each mile the car does in its lifetime may drop by as much as 50%, as a result of getting more distance out of the initial manufacturing emissions.

Of course, the exact benefits of new versus old cars, diesel versus hybrids, car clubs versus owning, and so on, are different for each person. To find out the greenest choice for you, check out the new interactive greener car guide at Startuk.org.

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...tprint-new-car

[mayankk]

Apparently this is the outcome of a lawyer's activities, who couldn't breathe in Gurgaon. Some vardhman kaushik
I don't mind that.
However, he says, he will lead this by example. He has a 2005 Mercedes Benz, which he will sacrifice, maybe move it to another house in another state. Well, how fortunate for him, I feel. Such magnanimity.

This is already running into a rough patch, by the way. What the utterly intelligent people in the NGT didn't think of is where the impound will be be. So far, I read about 96 vehicles were stopped and taken away, commercial. The traffic guys themselves have not taken this up, knowing the order won't hold water.

[sgiitk]

I saw Sunita Narain on the box, so I know it may be the CSE at the back of it. Remember her PIL asking for the banning of all Diesel vehicles, just prior to the launch of the Indica. It was rumoured that MUL (who were not into diesels at that time) were at the back. CSE has done good work, esp on asking for CNG buses, but often they go over the top... May I ask the lady what has she done about controlling all pervasive fuel adulteration? Zilch afaik. What about extending BS-IV nationwide, and also switching it to full Euro-IV in terms of Sulphur etc.

[caged_nomad]

Ok, so we all have very something to say, but unless we get our voice heard by the appropriate authorities. Its a bit like this
Does anyone know of some counter activist/ lawyers who could challenge theses rulings.
At this point I am willing to contribute financially to such a campaign as i am sure are several others. Together we can we CAN make a difference.

[sgiitk]

Remember the chief is a former judge, and is a lay person. Here I think it is Mr J Swatantar Kumar, and has to rely on experts. If you load the tribunal with activists this is what happens.

[caged_nomad]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Remember the chief is a former judge, and is a lay person. Here I think it is Mr J Swatantar Kumar, and has to rely on experts. If you load the tribunal with activists this is what happens.

Agreed Sir, but we have to put forth the counter view. Both this ruling and the one banning 15 year old cars is a knee jerk reaction and has not been though out clearly.
I have a 15 year old Gypsy and its kept in mint condition, it passes the PUC every time. On the other hand I have seen 5 year old accents that pollute like hell.
Plus you are taking away somebody's pride and joy, such decisions are best left to government that represent all sections of the people not just some activists advising a court.

Quite frankly I am deeply disappointed in the government, Sarkar toh nah modi ki hain na app ki, chalti hai toh bas NGT ke baap ki.

Anyway enough of raving and ranting.

Offer is still on the table, anyone challenging such keen jerk reactions, I would love to help out financially.

Can someone atleast get us a stay on the two orders!

[EasyR1der]

Just read an article in TOI about 10 year old card

" Dealers say the ban will affect more than five lakh vehicles worth many thousands of crores. Of these, about 30% will have to be taken off the road immediately when the ban is enforced, they claim. "Many of these vehicles are premium SUVs that dealers buy at high prices and then sell to select clients," said Lokesh Munjal, vice president of a car dealers' association. "

I also imagine that this will have its affect in the Insurance premiums and depreciation of a Vehicles.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/46870187.cms

[spoth001]

Originally Posted by mustangboss302

The rules in America and other countries say that a vehicle has to go for a fitness test every year after it completes 5 years of life which makes sense. Also, they still enjoy the ride on the Vintage and Classics Like Chargers / Camaros / Cadillacs / Duesenberg that they have preserved for ages and a whole lot of car enthusiasts in America love to have them in their garages. The programs on Discovery Turbo shows how much people spend on restoring the old cars. The other cause to pollution in Delhi is some trucks that enter Delhi are overloaded, some run on adulterated fuel and Delhi does not have a by-pass so they enter Delhi to go to some other state. If a truck has to go to say Palwal from Chandigarh will have no other route but to enter from Alipur and go through Burari, Majnu Ka Tila, Civil Lines, ITO, Ashram, New Friends Colony, Sarita Vihar and Badarpur in Delhi plus the Whole of Faridabad. Similarly, if a truck has to go from ICD Tughlakabad, to Chandigarh, it will have to take the same route back. The Maruti Trucks from Gurgaon to Chandigarh take the route from Dhaula Kuan and cross Rajauri Garden, Punjabi Bagh, Shalimar Bagh, Wazirpur to finally get to GT road or Alipur road. Honda plant in Surajpur also would take the Kalindi Kunj route via nehru place, chirag dilli, panchsheel, IIT, munirka, vasant vihar and mahipalpur to go to Gurgaon. or the outer ring road. Hence all the CITY ROADS are choked due to no by-pass road available. The ISBTs also are at a place that can be called east central Delhi so the 2500 odd daily inter-state buses also pollute. A lower middle class fellow with 2 kids earns around 30K in a month and suddenly wakes up to the news that he will not be able to drive his 1999 Maruti 800 running on CNG to work because of this stupid ban when his decently maintained 800 pollutes less than a new or 4 years old Indica emitting black smoke or a tata maxi mini running on CNG but emitting white smoke(saw these two polluters in the morning today). If he is on rent and he has to pay the school fees of his kids and his wife is not earning, will never be able to pay new car EMIs in today's date in Delhi for sure. He will per-force have to use public transport and loose precious time that he would save using his own transport and spent with his family. He will be weather beaten even if he buys a 2 wheeler and would not be able to take his family of four together as two wheelers will only be able to transport only 2 persons. Think Twice before you act NGT. You might be playing with someone's life and deprive a family of the joy of being together. Also think of a 65 years old retired person who might own a petrol vehicle nearing 15 years age and his children not living with him. Where will he earn money to pay EMIs for his new car to go to Doctors or his social gathering for which he maintained his car thinking that he would use it for the time he is able to drive it as the banks don't finance a person more than 58 years of age. Baseless and hap-hazard decision by the NGT to ban at least 15 years old petrol vehicles.

I dont think thats true my friend. I have lived in the US and drove old cars while I was a student. I never had to undergo this test but you need to renew your License Plate registration every year. Every state has own rules and most of them are common.
Coming to this new phase out rule, I support this and would want it to be applied only on ugly looking trucks/tempos/jeeps/buses etc. Not home vehicles for sure.