[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by graaja

The ECU has two memories, the program memory that stores the program that performs ECU functions, and an EEPROM that stores the maps and other information like immobilizer code etc.

True that!! Out of curiosity, I spoke to many tuners regarding it. I wanted to know if the tuner can take a copy of stock map and flash it back post VW update. The only tuner in India whom I know has expertise to play with ECU coding level is Rajiv, Wolf Moto. He told me that if VW changes the code / software, then it's not possible / very difficult to flash the original stock map.

[Zubin21]

Originally Posted by Tanveer_2558

No wonder what i felt was true, I knew it there was no 2 ways about it, Even though very few people here on forums said they don't find any difference, I could never believe it, Thats how smartly VW has detuned the engine, Shooting a rough guess, I would say 90% of the folks in India won't find any difference in the car post the update, They have made sure the lower end still has the same grunt, They know how most cars are used in India, In city traffic and even on highways speeds around 100 kph in the highest gear, Only an enthusiasts would know and realise what has the car become post the update, And what does VW do to its owners here in India? Give them a couple of bottles to polish the tyres & the car, Like really? I plonked 20 big ones to buy the car that drove the way my test drive car did, I am glad that the truth is now in front of everyone, GTO & I did try to get to the root of it, But unfortunately we couldn't as the lack of proper 4 wheel dyno.

Agree! I gave my Laura for service last month and was delivered with the new mapping. Initially as the bill didn't have any cost associated i just assumed the line item to be a regular scan with some EDC mentioned. Post that most of the drives have been in city traffic and the difference was hardly felt, didn't feel any difference in the NVH too.
However this weekend i went for a drive and stretched its legs and instantly realized that the car was no longer eager as before. It almost felt as if parking brakes were not fully disengaged and the car was held back as the progress was lethargic. Immediately called up SA to check and he confirmed in his system that it was indeed re-programmed.
Although agreed that for majority of the drives at lower speeds the remapping effect is masked cleverly however its nowhere near the capabilities for what i bought in the first place. I am seriously considering a remap now.

[Tanveer_2558]

Originally Posted by Zubin21

Agree! I gave my Laura for service last month and was delivered with the new mapping. Initially as the bill didn't have any cost associated i just assumed the line item to be a regular scan with some EDC mentioned.

Same for me too, Nothing was mentioned on the given bill, But it was indeed told to me over the call, My friendly SA also mentioned that people who don't know about the software update, Even their car gets updated automatically and they don't even notify every customer about it!

Post that most of the drives have been in city traffic and the difference was hardly felt, didn't feel any difference in the NVH too.

Isn't VW cleaver?

However this weekend i went for a drive and stretched its legs and instantly realized that the car was no longer eager as before. It almost felt as if parking brakes were not fully disengaged and the car was held back as the progress was lethargic.

Exactly! You flex your right foot & ask for more power & she won't respond the way it used to before.

I am seriously considering a remap now.

If your going to keep the car for some time, Get it done! No 2 questions about it.

[RevJ]

With all due respect to all of the senior members here I would like to share my 2 cents regarding this "Loss of Power" & "Drivability".

I did my software update on Skoda Rapid 1.5 TDi on Sept 2016 when the car went for some running repairs around 28,000KM. My initial impressions were-

1. Engine clatter (in-cabin and externally) increased to a good margin.
2. Marginal increase in efficiency.
3. No power loss feel, but punch seems to come now from 2000-2500RPM.

Now the car's odometers reads more than 38,000KM a good 10,000KM after the update and one paid service. The high running is due to my daily drive to office around 40KM and then weekend drives accounting to 100KM or more. Also did a Trivandrum- Chennai run and some trips to neighboring cities. My impressions or feedback on the software updates after these are:-

1. Can't define it as power loss it's more progressive and linear. Engine clatters sort of settled down but still more than original. On highways definitely no lack of "power" feel is there, held some good speeds that too on full load on the trip to Chennai. Accompanied by a Honda City i-Dtec and Fiat Punto 90hp, needless to say Rapid was in a category of it's own. So no 10-15HP or 20-30NM torque loss as others state.
2. Fuel efficiency has increased marginally around 1KM/Ltr. But low end punch in city drive is affected.

On Point- Unless there is hard evidence of 10-15BHP or torque loss, all else are assumptions and what to say it's all in your head. The car's are still strong very powerful and built like a tank. The money which you spend on be it any VW, Audi or Skoda car is not lost. I guarantee that in my case whenever I see another same class cars (City,Ciaz or Verna) I can still give them a run for their money and definitely out pass them too. Enough to make me grin!

P.S:- Strictly based on my experiences. No disrespect to (Honda, MSIL and Hyundai) owners.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by RevJ

On Point- Unless there is hard evidence of 10-15BHP or torque loss, all else are assumptions and what to say it's all in your head. The car's are still strong very powerful and built like a tank. The money which you spend on be it any VW, Audi or Skoda car is not lost. I guarantee that in my case whenever I see another same class cars (City,Ciaz or Verna) I can still give them a run for their money and definitely out pass them too. Enough to make me grin!

P.S:- Strictly based on my experiences. No disrespect to (Honda, MSIL and Hyundai) owners.

That is an interesting perspective. I would say there are lots of things we discuss on this forum which might be in people’s head rather then factual. I can name quite a few, ranging from discussion on the effects of lub oil to fuel efficiency etc.

But that doesn’t make it different for people. As they say, perception is reality!

I know, if I had owned a VW to which this would have happened I would be really upset. Irrespective of exactly how many HPs I had actually lost. That’s not the point.

I know this might sound silly to some, but things like that would really spoil my pleasure of owning/driving that particular car.

Jeroen

[Tanveer_2558]

Anyone who has driven more than 10,000 kms on a updated car has probably gotten "Used" to the car & power by now, A true petrol head would know the difference in "loss of power" & "Drivability" the very next second he drives the car after the update, Sure keep driving it for thousands of kms you'll get used to it & you'll probably feel thats how the car came with, As simple as that, There is no 2 ways about it that the punch is gone, Its tapered out, 10-15HP is just a rough estimate from a 2 Litre engine which was producing 138 bhp, For a 1.5 Litre engine surely the difference would be different & perhaps not much of a loss as the 2 litre ones.

[Thad E Ginathom]

I'm wondering how the cars being sold now compare in performance?

[Immix]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

I'm wondering how the cars being sold now compare in performance?

I test drove a 2016 Jetta briefly that was probably sold with the fix and I found it to be more nimble, light, and fast (just a perception as it was a short drive) than my 2014 pre fix Jetta. After the software fix, my car has become even more lethargic.

So maybe the 2016 and later cars came with the software fix and some hardware modifications similar to what VW India did to newer 1.5 TDIs. This would make the newer cars suck less (or even more powerful) than the older cars in which only a software fix is applied. This is just a theory though

[Crazy_Bean]

Members, Now that I have driven my Passat for about 1500 kms on the updated software, I can confirm all the findings. The engine is lethargic!! It does not feel like 170 PS anymore. The car feels heavier and slower. Also the vibration at idle has increased. If all this came with improvement to fuel economy, i wouldn't have minded, but my FE has also dropped significantly (~2 kmpl). That's hard to digest. Now I am looking for a fix.

Can Pete's /TOT /Code 6 remaps fix this? I want my performance and economy back.

[tilt]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

*SNIPPED FOR RELEVANCE*
Mind you, I'm putting my money where my mouth is - I'm trading in my Swift diesel for a petrol AT. The biggest compromise is being made in the sheer fun to drive quotient, so that my pollution footprint is lesser.*SNIPPED FOR RELEVANCE*

Originally Posted by phamilyman

*SNIPPED FOR RELEVANCE*
PS: Even my current car is being replaced just one year short of the year it would be de-registered. Else I would happily run it for much longer.*SNIPPED FOR RELEVANCE*

Phamilyman, I am afraid I find your first quote a bit contradictory of your second one.

Your first quote kind of castigates the poster you responded to, and gives the impression that the only reason you're changing cars from Diesel to petrol is to save the environment and future inhabitants of the world.

Your second quote says that you're being forced to replace your car because it would be deregistered in a year.

I may be mistaken, but this makes you look disingenuous.

And RevJ, your statement: "On Point- Unless there is hard evidence of 10-15BHP or torque loss, all else are assumptions and what to say it's all in your head." - did you have a chance to actually watch the video in the first post in this thread; and also read the attached article? It's certainly not in the head, it is properly tested and documented. I consider that hard evidence.

Cheers

[Epic]

So finally the cat is out of the bag and it is proven that the 2.0 TDI engines have lost power & torque. There were many claims by our own team members that the loss was easily up to 10%-15%. However, by the dyno test done in the You Tube video, the difference is just about a 7% drop in bhp and 2% drop in torque.

I got the update done on my 2015 Jetta. Do I feel that the drop is big? Hell no!! Actually I am one of the few members who did not find any difference in performance. So does that mean I am not an enthusiast or a petrol head or someone who does not knows how to drive a car? Definitely not!! The fact that I did not feel much of a difference is maybe because the loss is negligible (which as per the numbers in the report is). Do I feel that VW has cheated me? Am I disappointed? Yes for sure for the fact that VW had added a cheat device to bypass emission norms. Am I still disappointed post software update? Only because VW is not open enough to say there is a drop in performance but not because there is a drop in performance.

[Tanveer_2558]

Originally Posted by Crazy_Bean

Members, Now that I have driven my Passat for about 1500 kms on the updated software, I can confirm all the findings. The engine is lethargic!! It does not feel like 170 PS anymore. The car feels heavier and slower. Also the vibration at idle has increased. If all this came with improvement to fuel economy, i wouldn't have minded, but my FE has also dropped significantly (~2 kmpl). That's hard to digest. Now I am looking for a fix.

Can Pete's /TOT /Code 6 remaps fix this? I want my performance and economy back.

Just get the car remapped, Preference of the tuner will be totally onto you, Post update the car literally begs for a remap, I can personally vouch for pete's, They have a combo of (Cheap + Reliable) Which is too good to be beaten frankly, Just spend some money & enjoy the ride again man.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by tilt

I may be mistaken, but this makes you look disingenuous.

*sigh*

Here's the mental math that I have run basis such articles.

Pollution caused by production of new car >>> Additional diesel particulate pollution avoided by switching to a new petrol car.

So the thumb rule was - use your current car as long as the law practically allows, then buy the greener choice.

Feel free to update it with hard data - I've been lazy in putting hard data behind it, but to label it disingenuous is silly. Can we not avoid jumping to uncharitable allegations especially when they are unsupported by data?

Further, dieselgate happened in 2015. The article I quoted, came out mid 2016, I observed it only end 2016 when I decided the Swift had to go. I'm making the best decision at the time I got down to making the decision.

[no_boundaries]

Vehicle : Vento TDi HL
Model : 2011
VW ASS : Palace VW, Hessaraghatta

I could feel the engine thrum is a tad different with a higher grunt. No vibrations in cabin. Acceleration in 2nd affected. It cuts off the torque I could drag in 2nd gear. Higher gears IMO has no difference. City driving, now I can up-shift to 3rd sooner and can coast. Seems slow to reach the top whack on open roads.

Overall negligible difference.

[lamborghini]

Coming from a remapped Laura TDi DSG, this de-tune has been even worse!

As Crazy Bean pointed out - the smoothness is gone (it was smoother before being serviced - i.e. with 10Kkm old engine oil), the power is gone (it struggles to accelerate especially into triple digit speeds), and FE seems to have dropped as well.
The power seems a little peak-ier, resulting in the wheels spinning when you would least want them too (or least expect them too as per the old map) - such as around bends, etc.

Heck - so much disdain for the vehicle in it's present tune that I have barely driven her post service, and it's entirely chauffeur driven. Waiting for ToT guys to come to Bombay to re-remap the car (even if it is back to original tune).

One serious concern though - the car has covered 2.5Kkm since the de-tune and I've been noticing that the DPF regen always comes on a couple of times in each drive (where the engine rpm climbs up to 950rpm to burn the extra soot). This has only happened a few times prior, and always went away on it's own.
This time however, it refuses to go, and it is a constant annoyance and fear that something may be wrong.

Anyone else experiencing the same?