[GTO]

A lot of BHPians (myself included) will agree with this dude. Maruti should never have gotten any subsidies for its lame SHVS "hybrids".

Full Economic Times Article

The tribunal was hearing a plea filed by lawyer Ashwini Kumar seeking directions to the carmaker to deposit Rs 95 crore subsidy along with interest received during sale of its vehicles 'Ciaz and Ertiga' with the Ministry of Heavy Industries.

The petition, filed through advocate Sumeer Sodhi, alleged that the vehicles manufactured by Maruti claiming to be mild hybrid vehicles were "in fact not anywhere close to being such hybrid vehicles and the subsidies received were totally wrong, mala fide and illegal".

It claimed that the Maruti Suzuki Ciaz SHVS and Ertiga SHVS models was not a hybrid or mild hybrid vehicle and the only change in the engine was an integration of the starter motor and the generator motor termed as Integrated Starter Generator motor.

And interestingly:

The only plausible explanation for the sudden withdrawal of subsidy to the cars manufactured by the Respondent No.3 (Maruti) appears to be the RTI applications by the applicant trying to seek information of the certification of the vehicles produced by Maruti categorised as 'Mild Hybrid Vehicles.

Hat's off, dude!

[jetsetgo08]

I am not sure if Maruti passed on the subsidy benefits to the consumers at locations other than Delhi, but if they were really made to pay the 95 crores with interest, where/whom would they approach? The customers who have already benefited from NMEM subsidy?

[lamborghini]

Originally Posted by jetsetgo08

I am not sure if Maruti passed on the subsidy benefits to the consumers at locations other than Delhi, but if they were really made to pay the 95 crores with interest, where/whom would they approach? The customers who have already benefited from NMEM subsidy?

The subsidy was passed on throughout the country if I remember correctly, which is why post GST - the prices of SHVS vehicles shot up.
Delhi had the further advantage that the SHVS vehicles could run on all days (during the odd/even ban) IIRC.

[The Rationalist]

Hope Maruti doesn’t come up with ideas like calling up SHVS owners and demand money if the court ruling goes against them! The brains behind SHVS hybrids will not be short of ideas I guess. I was wondering all the while how these tricksters were finding loopholes. This guy needs a pat for fighting it out.

[blackwasp]

Originally Posted by GTO

Maruti should never have gotten any subsidies for its lame SHVS "hybrids".

Yes. Agree in general on this, but MSIL should have used this as an opportunity to further develop the hybrid-tech. It was known that sooner or later the mild-hybrid category would be removed from the FAME subsidy as that was just to give an impetus to the manufacturers.

Originally Posted by jetsetgo08

I am not sure if Maruti passed on the subsidy benefits to the consumers at locations other than Delhi..

I can confirm this. Delhi had a lower VAT on Ciaz and Ertiga diesels. But the FAME subsidy was pan-India. We had to upload details of the buyer, including Aadhaar and PAN details on the FAME portal in a stipulated time from sale, along with signatures of the buyer. This was the only way the subsidy could be availed.

And frankly Rs. 95 crores is chump change for an organisation that reported a profit of Rs. 7,337.70 crores in the latest financial report.

This was a typical case of MSIL lobbying for 'hybrid' categorisation, which apart from the subsidy gave them an important advantage over the rival cars. When the govt. realised this, they withdrew the subsidy. Maruti should have upped the game when Ciaz was moved to Nexa by giving it a proper hybrid system and getting the FAME subsidy as well as a name for itself.

For people considering Ciaz and Ertiga, Rs. 13,000 is not a big amount. So I think this is not a question of money, but rather the association with the car being called hybrid.

[OrangeCar]

I believe a lot of firms exploited it.

I genuinely believe Maruti should be penalized for this and should be fined over and above the subsidy of 95 crore + interest. Otherwise these auto makers would not learn.

And cheers to this dude! At times, when you are wondering where the nation is going, it is such people who give you a glimmer of hope!

Ball's in the court's court! Please don't let us down.

[romeomidhun]

Quoting from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mild_hybrid

"Mild hybrids are generally internal combustion engines equipped with an electric machine (one motor/generator in a parallel hybrid configuration) allowing the engine to be turned off whenever the car is coasting, braking, or stopped, yet restart quickly. Mild hybrids may employ regenerative brake and some level of power assist to the internal combustion engine (ICE), but mild hybrids do not have an exclusive electric-only mode of propulsion."

Isn't it what Maruti has done to the their Ciaz and Ertiga / M&M to Scorpio mild hybrid? Am I wrong / missing something here?

Govt offered a subsidy for Hybrids and mild hybrids; manufacturers like Maruti used it to their advantage (and in effect to the customer also by pricing their cars lower). If govt is making foolish decisions and that gives manufacturers the option to exploit it, it's govt's problem, not that of manufacturers. It's the govt machinery who has to check the claims by these manufacturers.

Manufacturers are here not for charity, but for profit. Charity may be their mask.

Originally Posted by blackwasp

AFAIK, M&M's hybrid models (eg. Scorpio) never got Fame subsidy.

Thanks. I stand corrected if they were not.

[blackwasp]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Govt offered a subsidy for Hybrids and mild hybrids; manufacturers like Maruti and M&M used it to their advantage (and essentially to the customer by pricing their cars lower). Am I wrong / missing something here?

AFAIK, M&M's hybrid models (eg. Scorpio) never got Fame subsidy. The only cars with an internal combustion engine to get the subsidy were the Toyota Camry, Ertiga SHVS and Ciaz SHVS. Detailed list of models can be seen on the FAME India website. Strangely the MSIL siblings have a mention here even today. One can also see the Tigor EV, Jayem Neo, and Mahindra's eVerito, eSupro etc. along with e2o.

Scroll down and you'll also see Volvo 8400 B5RLEH 4x2 city bus. It gets a whooping Rs. 61 lakh subsidy ! (Or its a typo )

[itwasntme]

Unsure whether legally any action can be taken! MoRTH specified a flawed definition but with good intentions in mind, certain manufacturers took advantage of the exact definition, and now judiciary is being asked to intervene.

I have a feeling the SC will throw out the petition but will come down harshly on MoRTH for the flawed inclusion of such mild hybrids in the FAME scheme.

[srishiva]

I am not sure about the SHVS. If it did improve fuel efficiency, it was a hybrid of some sort. The rules did not have mild or high in the hybrid definition, right ? Please let me know if my thinking is wrong. Its a case of using the rules to the benefit of the car maker. Who doesnt want to do that in business ?

[phamilyman]

I think this is a really bad plea.

The government came out with a scheme that was limited in its time horizon and therefore no one had incentives to invest for the long term. Maruti did the math, found a sweet spot, got the right product in, ensured the right integration (i.e the right price) and made a market winner out of it. Don't blame them for bringing in what was the most saleable / easy to do product (mild hybrid).

None of us would have done anything else - it WAS Ok by the rules. They took the risk, invested and won big. All fair and square.

PS: Reg scorpio comparison? http://overdrive.in/news-cars-auto/f...ogy-explained/ explains it well enough.

[Thermodynamics]

Not sure how much is the legal binding for Maruti to be held accountable on this issue.

Can a manufacturer produce a bullock cart and claim it as high tech self driving EV? Don't they need to be certified by some authority that approves a new vehicle and it's category (if I am right, I guess it must be the ARAI). The buck stops here, the Authorities who approve it.

On another perspective, let us assume, the court rules in favour of the petitioner and asks manufacturers to payback the subsidy. Would then our Government revoke FAME subsidy for full hybrids ?

[jalajprakash]

http://dhi.nic.in/writereaddata/Uplo...sed_270415.pdf

Found one of the circulars published by the government regarding the FAME scheme.

Please notice point 2.2 part h as well as point 2.5 as I have quoted below.

2.2 Each such Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM), who wishes to avail the benefit of this scheme shall apply for registration to National Automotive Board in the prescribed proforma as given in Annexure 1. At the time of this application, each OEM shall be required to attach the following documents.

h) Testing / Homologation Certificate issued by the designated Testing Centre in satisfaction of VPQC and FAME-India Guidelines for each model of vehicle separately (As per format at Annexure 3)

2.5 Each OEM may approach separately to designated testing centres for issue of testing and homologation services which, inter alia, would certify that particular vehicle is entitled to get benefit under Demand Incentive Scheme and the level of benefit that vehicle would get as per FAME-India Scheme. All designated testing centers have already been advised accordingly.

Now, the test centers mentioned for testing and homologation are,

1. The Automotive Research Association of India (ARAI)
2. International Centre for Automotive Technology (ICAT)
3. Central Institute of Road Transport (CIRT)

One of these homologation centers gave Maruti the go ahead to certify Ertiga SHVS and Ciaz SHVS as Mild Hybrids so I think it would these agencies that would be in trouble and not Maruti until and unless they were in on it together.

[Naveen_0181]

I believe the SHVS engines from Maruti/Suziki will fall under mild hybrids as per the definition. Maruti never claimed those engines to be full hybrid.
A long as the subsidy covers mild hybrids there should not be anything wrong from the manufacturer.

[revintup]

Finally !

Ciaz Alpha diesel costs a whooping 2.55 Lakhs more OTR compared to the Ciaz petrol. And the petro is a 1.4L engine outside the 1.2L limit.

When I expressed my outrageousness to the Nexa RM, he said that is because its a hybrid like the Camry

Well, I did not argue further. Maruthi is not passing one single Rupee from the tax rebate they are enjoying. If anything they are actually claiming a premium by selling a fake technology installed only to mislead both the authorities and the public