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Old 14th February 2020, 11:08   #16
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

There is quite a bit of confusion on diesel to dissuade the average city dweller and ditch diesels..

1. Is the BS4 fuel compatible with BS6 vehicles and vice-versa ? Its impact on down the road maintenance ?

2. Given Volkswagen's infamous diesel gate, are the manufacturer's claims true on BS6 compliance with a fraction of cost of upgrade Vs the INR 2 - 2.5 Lakhs envisioned earlier ?

3. Govt. policy on Diesels : Will the car need to scrapped with in 10 years ? Resale value impact ?

If I was doing ~1500 KMS a month, in the current market I would pick up a Petrol with decent mileage Vs the Diesel I picked up ~2 Yrs back. Just too much uncertainty.

But, If the running was high / commercial operations where the lifetime of the vehicle is less diesel still makes sense despite the uncertainty.

I am wondering if Maruti - Suzuki knows some thing we all don't ? Are they happy catering to the Sub 10L market, which is where most of their volumes are (they will need to let go of the S-Cross and higher end aspirations) ?

Personally, I dont think I will have a problem running my Diesel at high RPMs, I do it anyways
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Old 14th February 2020, 13:46   #17
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

During my discussion with a leading emission component manufacturer in India at the Expo `20, the executive said that the OEMs have made nominal changes in the exhaust without using SCR.

They are waiting for RDE(Real Driving Emissions) to kick in 2022-23 , if at all that comes. Otherwise, things will continue the way they are.
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Old 14th February 2020, 15:52   #18
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

What cars will the taxi segment buy? The Uber/Ola taxis are dominated by Maruti and to a lesser extent, Toyota diesels.
What will they start buying? Honda Brio/Amaze? Mahindra Verito? Tata Tiago/Tigor?
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Old 14th February 2020, 15:59   #19
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by praveear View Post
During my discussion with a leading emission component manufacturer in India at the Expo `20, the executive said that the OEMs have made nominal changes in the exhaust without using SCR.

They are waiting for RDE(Real Driving Emissions) to kick in 2022-23 , if at all that comes. Otherwise, things will continue the way they are.
This is the real truth. With upcoming CAFE norms in 2022-23 and RDE, all quoted mileage figures will drop to reflect real-world values. It is next to impossible to meet CAFE and RDE norms without Urea Tank and SCR which is a big cost in itself. So costs are bound to go up but not as much maybe as the Japanese OEMs feared. All this cost up will make Hybrids more attractive. That is the hope for OEMs like Maruti and Toyota. With battery manufacturing at Gujarat, chances of cost competitiveness is high.
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Old 14th February 2020, 16:16   #20
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

LNT is very much an accepted technology to meet emissions less than 2L. Should not be an issue to meet RDE verifications. There might be software changes , but hardware will be protected during the current transition.

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Old 15th February 2020, 00:47   #21
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

Why aren't more manufacturers offering the Diesel+CVT combo? Is it expensive or complex or both?
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:19   #22
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

It seems very strange that MSIL was lobbying so hard against diesel powertrains when they were building the 1.5 L engine on the sidelines. And how stupid can they get in terms of not planning to build the 1.5 diesel for BS6 compliance?



Whether it makes sense or not, many people will buy diesel cars for lower running costs. Higher expenses (regularly at the pump) makes humans feel the pinch more than a one time premium of 1.5 lakh rupees.
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Originally Posted by thehighwayman View Post
Why aren't more manufacturers offering the Diesel+CVT combo? Is it expensive or complex or both?
Automatic transmissions are predominantly made for petrol engines with lower torque. Honda just detuned their engine in the Diesel + CVT combo. ROI on engineering a diesel AT is simply not worth it for most manufacturers.

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 15th February 2020 at 01:21.
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Old 15th February 2020, 02:10   #23
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

Adding my posts on other threads because of relevance.

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Originally Posted by Capricorn View Post
Ford is doing just fine with Ecosport 1.5 Petrol why couldn't MSIL with Brezza? Either Ecosport is priced well even when in higher tax rate or MSIL products are not economical anymore. Now they have axed 1.3 MJD so that people will not have comparison how the price was kept for same model outside and inside the small car tax slab.


They should have locally manufactured 1.0 Turbo Petrol from Baleno which was a perfect match with Brezza and tax breaks too. It could easily have been added to Ciaz as another variant for those who know smaller engine is not necessarily low on power and good competition to turbo petrols with Ecosport, Nexon and XUV3OO.

Isn't MSIL is too greedy and milking Indians without much investment? They are definitely late to the party.
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Originally Posted by Capricorn View Post
Increased cost of Diesel engined car and the narrow difference between Petrol and Diesel fuels hardly justifies diesel taxi within city. In BS6 era it cannot be justified and even if options are available, CNG will eat lion's share followed by pure petrol. The lower maintenance and insurance costs of non-diesels also add significant margin to taxi owners.

Now there are options available in affordable electric cars to lower the demand of diesel taxies even further. At the moment there are expensive and lower range options, but things will suddenly change in few months. Let us see how they will be taken by car OEMs.

Diesel taxi market will shrink but long distance trips will continue to be served by it. Still, compact sedans will not have major share there given major investment cost. Instead MUVs and regular sedans will drive the commercial market.

Maruti Suzuki
I have seen new Heartec based DZire with yellow number plate. Most likely they have stopped production of old gen DZire. It is obvious MSIL wont give up that market share easily. They wont have DDIS 1.3 anymore and they don't need. I have seen so many petrol Dezires that it makes me believe diesel is losing its sheen faster than we're expecting. They will continue with BS6 1.2 petrol coupled with CNG for DZire and few other cars using same engine for taxi.

Further up they have covered Ertiga with BS6 1.5 petrol and CNG. Their sell from VDi was fast decreasing. So they have much to bother anyway. Ertiga will still sell highest in MUV taxi market. Ciaz will definitely have reduced consumers as they usually don't like boot to be occupied with CNG tank instead of airport luggage.

If they bring in BS6 1.5 DDiS (which I believe they will in 2021) they will have sustained market dominance.

Hyundai
Aura for private and Xcent for commercial segment. They have found a way to differentiate product among image based consumers. Being similar in size and BS6 compliant engines in petrol, diesel and CNG means they have secured their share in compact sedan taxi market. Hyundais have higher than average maintenance costs and that will continue to play role. Still, smaller capacity diesel will have huge advantage for Hyundai as this will be the only diesel with capacity lower than 1.5.

Honda
Upgrade of iDtec 1.5 to BS6 ensured Honda Amaze continue to offer options. They will lose on big CNG share though if not brought that variant fast. Both petrol and diesel offers decent performance and fuel economy and will continue its run on in city as well as outstation.

Both 1.5 engines for city will be BS6 keeping their share in premium sedan fleet, but not for long. It was expensive in the first place and the hotel fleet (who is their primary customer segment) will seek electric options which are not that distant.

Ford
Similar to Hyundai with their portfolio. Aspire and Figo have found their engines for BS6 with petrol, diesel and CNG. Competent engines with inexpensive maintenance can easily trump Hyundai except for the perception of premiumsness.

Tata
They have surrendered Taxi market to Maruti, Hyundai, Ford, Honda as a part of brand building among private consumers. No new cars were allocated to fleet except that they recently have sold few copies of Hexa to make some money from the demising product. Old age products like Indigo CS, Vista, Indica have their sales falling over and might have stopped by now. Along with it, mid age products, Zest and Bolt, have not been updated for BS6.

Will they be axed? I think they can continue producing Zest with petrol engine from Tiago with CNG as option and electric engine from Nexon. This combination has enough taker and will have enough presence in Fleet. Their X1 platform is not going away until Nexon is moved onto Alpha architecture. So Zest don't have much production problem. But I don't think they will invest for this minuscule sales. Hexa was being offered with fleet segment and I presume they can offer Gravitas to fleet after Hexa demise.

Tigor EV needs Ziptron to gain sales. In existing form it isn't cheap to buy anyway and Ziptron isn't that costly being mostly manufactured in India. This has potential to gain sales as the electric running costs are even lower than CNG. Good for in city commute by Ola/Uber. Noting exciting as of now for the fleet. Their strategy is very different compared to mainstream players.

Mahindra
Their taxi market in entry level is on KUV. 1.2 Diesel being axed does not matter much as it wasn't sold much either. The petrol had some takers and now they have unveiled electric version with motor shared with Logan. In both cases I don't expect it to gain much momentum until electric is upgraded with long range battery and doesn't cost much. It is not coming until 2022.

On further higher up their engines are getting BS6 upgrade which should help commercial players who run intercity. Further up segment is not that price concious. BS6 upgrade cost is ok for most.

Toyota
The reliable 1.4D going out and so their 1.2/1/5P we can safely expect Toyota don't want to gain anything from cheap market. They have made up enough money from old platform and will free up some resources. Innova is their bread and butter for fleet with fat margins and they will have even more margin with Alphard/Hiace once brough in.


On a sidenote, used car sales is likely to zoom in the commercial market. Trusted cars, known maintenance means BS4 cars will live longer life than they supposed to be doing.
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Old 15th February 2020, 16:15   #24
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

MSIL became over confident with their market prediction of Diesels.

Others simply tried and succeeded in retaining their best diesels such as Ford, Tata & Mahindra.

There’s a change in the tide and it’s very much necessary. MSIL was once on the top and eventually their time on the clock will come down while others are catching up to the top spot for sure in the coming years. (There’s a storm coming Mr.Wayne!)

On the other hand, to remain competitive, hope manufacturers do not open another flood gate like VWAG’s dieselgate scam
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Old 15th February 2020, 16:22   #25
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

Let's wait and watch for results with these small diesel engines with Nox traps, and even the larger ones with DPFs without Ad Blue type systems. We already have reports of Kia Seltos owners facing clogged DPFs, allegedly due to use of BS4 fuel - I suspect that is not the case, and the problem is that our urban driving cycles do not let the soot burn appropriately. I am almost certain that all of these cars will face real world driving problems, and will not really be compliant with BS6 standards. If Mercedes could not meet Euro 6 standards at its price point, what are the odds that Ford can do so for USD 200 over a BS4 engine?
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Old 15th February 2020, 17:01   #26
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post

... Honda just detuned their engine in the Diesel + CVT combo. ROI on engineering a diesel AT is simply not worth it for most manufacturers.
A CVT on WRV diesel would have worked wonders for Honda in this SUV-crazy market. I know 3 people who moved to Ecosport/Creta for their AT needs after finding out no AT on WRV. I drove a friend's Amaze D CVT and it was very smooth with nice acceleration. But knowing Honda, this would never happen. They are throwing away their business in India to rivals.
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Old 15th February 2020, 17:08   #27
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
the problem is that our urban driving cycles do not let the soot burn appropriately.
All manufacturers are saying that to avoid clogging of DPF in BS6 diesels, driving more than 20 mins at around 2500 rpm is required at regular intervals. Like for Harrier, Tata recommends driving it in 3rd gear at 60km/h for atleast 20 mins (2200 rpms)

But what they don't quote is, how frequently we need to do this. What is that interval? After how many KMs of driving, this needs to be done?
If this regeneration is required once every 500 km or more, it should be achievable for most of us.

A quick google search says it is required every 300 miles or 500kms. Is this the case for all BS6 diesel engines?

But if it is required after say every 100-200 kms for some cars, maintaining such BS6 diesel cars is going to be problem for maximum urban commuters.

If we can't go on a long run, then one way I see to unclog the DPF is to drive in lower gears, say once every week to keep rpms high. Will this also do the job as the main requirement is to get the engine hot for regeneration.

If anyone with knowledge in this regard can shed some light on this, it will be very helpful.

People with automatics will need to pay extra attention as the AT will automatically change gears and keep rpms low, so they will have to turn to manual mode when regeneration is required.

Last edited by SahilS : 15th February 2020 at 17:12.
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Old 16th February 2020, 08:16   #28
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
OEMs insist that the diesel cars must be run at higher RPMs frequently so that the accumulated particulates are burnt down and don't choke the DPF. This means new diesel cars are NOT ideal for CITY use. The sales guys don't inform this to a buyer.
Just a clarification ― diesel cars must be run at high rpms occasionally only for BS6 diesels or the ones with DPF, right?
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Old 16th February 2020, 08:28   #29
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by voldemort View Post
Just a clarification ― diesel cars must be run at high rpms occasionally only for BS6 diesels or the ones with DPF, right?
Yes, this applies to BS6 diesel cars with DPF. These filters remove the NOx from the exhaust and store it. After some usage, when the filter is full, it needs to be regenerated by injecting fuel and driving at speeds to increase exhaust temperature which will burn the soot.

For the regeneration to be completed, this high temperatures have to be maintained consistently for 20 minutes or more. In a pure city use case, when do you get an opportunity to drive at 2000+ rpm for more than 20 mins?
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Old 16th February 2020, 11:22   #30
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Default Re: BS6 small diesel engines - Doomsday predictions v/s the reality & disparity

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
In a pure city use case, when do you get an opportunity to drive at 2000+ rpm for more than 20 mins?
Won't this work - Drive only in 1st or 2nd gear to keep RPM above 2000. If stopped at a signal just rev the engine to > 2000RPM in neutral?
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