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Old 24th March 2020, 20:01   #136
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

The individualist in the taxpayer who want to benefit from the Corona induced fall in crude prices.

The collectivist who see what that imported albeit low price(for now) fuel can do to this country's BoP and environment.

A government that want to capitalize on the fall by keeping the price constant and adjusting tax rates accordingly to mop up funds to fight corona and other things.

In this drama, add some music (the young guys dancing for #5Baje5Minute would fit so perfect in the pandemonium).

Let's keep going till we can.
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Old 24th March 2020, 21:28   #137
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Very surprising to see people bashing government for hike. Please understand that government is going to lose large income from taxes in March & it will continue for few months ahead. Economy is in danger and they need to feed many sectors now to save jobs and people. If we get petrol or diesel 5-10 Rs cheaper, will it really affect our budget ? No. But saving sectors will save large number of jobs and will save economy all together. Try to understand.
When have they cared about saving jobs? Demonetization was a job saving measure? Lakhs of industries and workers lost their jobs, government had no remorse, joblessness is at a 45 year old high in India and it needs a Corona for the government to start saving jobs?

Diesel/Petrol is already taxed much higher than ever, they just increased the excise some days back, what else can anyone want? 75% of fuel is tax and rest is the actual price? Has there been cheap fuel ever since 2014 even when crude prices were low? What emergency was there then?

National building has happened at 147$ crude too, at 8 and 10% GDP growth, past the 2009 recession too. Government is just peddling nonsense to thug money out of us.

Which country has hiked taxes to do anything with Corona?

These are just my points of view, remembering everything that has happened since years now.

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Originally Posted by sachinayak View Post
If this "Sly Trick" by the Government was not a regular feature but only a one-time activity given the pandemic situation we are facing and its expected adverse impact on the economy, then EVERYONE would show a lot more understanding and patience. But this is a regular feature. If government is not doing its job correctly and managing its finances, why should the common man pay. Honestly as a tax-paying citizen, I already by 30% as income tax and upto 18% on GST on a number of services when using my post-tax income. Increasing excise duty on fuel is like hitting the nail on the coffin.

And contrary to your expectations, it is not the affluent class driving cars that will get benefited by a fuel rate cut. But a cut in diesel prices specifically will have a cascading impact on reducing inflation. Trucking/Railways which uses diesel for mass transport will become much cheaper and will result in tangible benefits for the poor class. Ideally, if we had restricted diesel usage only for commercial and public transportation, we would be very well equipped to execute it.
Exactly, its anti middle class.


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Originally Posted by Yeldo View Post
Two things are common factors across the globe:

1) The Corona pandemic puts a heavy strain on Government finances in every country.

2) Crude prices are at very low levels.

If the governments world over are increasing taxes on fuel and finding it as a source of additional revenue to fight the pandemic, then our Government is justified in this duty hike.

If not, defending this tax hike would require political affiliation and vehement support would require even higher level of political commitment.
No government has hiked any taxes, I mean in the time of crisis, who makes life even more difficult? Prices of every commodity will become expensive.

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Originally Posted by mh09ad5578 View Post

Why did the government deregulate fuel prices in the first place if it was to keep adjusting the prices to suit it in the fist place? No I am really peeved at this excess taxation. This is government high handedness. They know they can get away with anything and this is them doing it.
These are golden words!

Last edited by humyum : 24th March 2020 at 21:30.
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Old 24th March 2020, 22:57   #138
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
Auto, real estate, small and medium scale business, unorganised business - lot of sectors were affected by the disaster happened by their own "planned" mistake - the demonitisation. They have not yet explored the options to come out it even after 3 years. Do you still believe they can do something for this unplanned disaster called corona? Atleast to the automobile industry?
How and why demonetization affected a law abiding taxpayer is beyond me to this date ? It is only a fallacy that demonetization was a failure that the Govt doesn't bother to dispel. Those in possession of and dealing in black money, be it a small vendor, kirana store or a big builder were hit as they were intended to be. Real estate prices didn't correct without reason post demonetization.
One must not let one's personal bias influence everything. There is a lot of responsibility that every citizen must bear without cribbing about every action of the Govt; too many people expect to have a free run in life, expect Govts to work miracle after miracle. Our Govt machinery is handicapped by non merit based selection of staff and despite that the PM and his team are working to keep things in order. It takes a certain magnitude in years, knowledge, experience and sacrifice to gain the maturity to understand these matters.
The same people who complain that Janpath is being renovated at a certain cost will complain daily if it isn't done quoting examples of Europe and Singapore.
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Old 24th March 2020, 23:53   #139
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

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Originally Posted by fiestarry View Post
The same people who complain that Janpath is being renovated at a certain cost will complain daily if it isn't done quoting examples of Europe and Singapore.
I have been to cities in Europe (eg Dusseldorf, Brussels) where centuries old buildings are carefully maintained and updated with scrupulous regard to keeping their historical look and construction intact. Nobody is demolishing heritage buildings to replace them with "modern" structures, in fact any repair and maintenance work on a building of over a certain age requires some very specially qualified contractors who use the same techniques, material etc as was used centuries ago, and still ensure modern construction.

For the rest of what you said, I admire your unflinching trust, but let me just point out that Harry S Truman, former US president, had a sign on his desk "The buck stops here". That attitude precludes any possibility of assigning failure onto the heads of bureaucrats, judiciary, police, common people or anybody else.
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Old 25th March 2020, 02:17   #140
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

I wonder if all the infighting here is actually relevant now. We are in for a 21 day lockdown with nowhere to go. Even if fuel were 10rs a litre, we cannot go on a golden quadrilateral drive, can we?
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Old 25th March 2020, 08:13   #141
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

While I am no votary for heavy taxation, being a typical salaried middle class taxpayer, I would rather have fuel taxed obnoxiously so that the brunt is borne by a much larger cross section of citizenry than the precious 3% who pay income taxes. Should the govt earn its revenues in an equitable manner through raising taxes on goods, taxation would be truly consumption driven and will hopefully bring down the direct taxes burden. For the folks complaining about high fuel prices, spare a thought for the farmer in Punjab or Haryana or any of the other states in India, who despite having hundreds of acres in landholding pays nothing at all in taxes and claims free electricity and loan waivers to boot..... sorry guys I’ve had enough of subsidising thieves and cheats.... pl. note that the intent was NOT to cast aspersions on only the farming community but the entire non-tax paying lot including business people, professionals and politicos who evade taxes to the max extent possible.
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Old 25th March 2020, 08:24   #142
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
I have been to cities in Europe (eg Dusseldorf, Brussels) where centuries old buildings are carefully maintained.

Highly unconnected with what I was talking about. I was referring to sprucing up a capital city, not demolition of historical buildings which Janpath certainly isn't.

For the rest of what you said, I admire your unflinching trust, but let me just point out that Harry S Truman, former US president, had a sign on his desk "The buck stops here". That attitude precludes any possibility of assigning failure onto the heads of bureaucrats, judiciary, police, common people or anybody else.
I suppose Truman's sign solved everything. He was the same President who dropped Atomic Bombs on Japan well after Japan's forces had been defeated merely to test the effect of such a bomb on human settlements. A small matter of lakhs of civilian deaths. Choose your heroes wisely.
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Old 25th March 2020, 11:41   #143
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

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Originally Posted by fiestarry View Post
I suppose Truman's sign solved everything. He was the same President who dropped Atomic Bombs on Japan well after Japan's forces had been defeated merely to test the effect of such a bomb on human settlements. A small matter of lakhs of civilian deaths. Choose your heroes wisely.
There were multiple nuclear tests that were conducted prior to the WW2 to test the efficacy of these devices, no need to take the risk of carrying them across the world where you can get shot down midway etc etc and then drop precisely on top of an enemy target. Truman was no fool my friend, if the war had continued Allies would have lost a lot more people on their side, with this decisive action Truman saved his people - can't blame him, cos he is their elected candidate to the chair of the President of United States.

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Old 25th March 2020, 11:45   #144
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

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Originally Posted by racer_ash View Post
I wonder if all the infighting here is actually relevant now. We are in for a 21 day lockdown with nowhere to go. Even if fuel were 10rs a litre, we cannot go on a golden quadrilateral drive, can we?
Even I thought of the same, but then I need to start paying again after 21 days! Most people would be void of any income during this 21 day gap and will struggle to fill even a liter of fuel.
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Old 25th March 2020, 12:06   #145
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

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Originally Posted by INNOVATOR View Post
While I am no votary for heavy taxation, being a typical salaried middle class taxpayer, I would rather have fuel taxed obnoxiously so that the brunt is borne by a much larger cross section of citizenry than the precious 3% who pay income taxes. Should the govt earn its revenues in an equitable manner through raising taxes on goods, taxation would be truly consumption driven and will hopefully bring down the direct taxes burden. For the folks complaining about high fuel prices, spare a thought for the farmer in Punjab or Haryana or any of the other states in India, who despite having hundreds of acres in landholding pays nothing at all in taxes and claims free electricity and loan waivers to boot..... sorry guys I’ve had enough of subsidising thieves and cheats.... pl. note that the intent was NOT to cast aspersions on only the farming community but the entire non-tax paying lot including business people, professionals and politicos who evade taxes to the max extent possible.
Sorry, but I beg to differ on this. When there is a hole in your boat, you do not make another hole to let the water drain out, you plug the hole.

If the problem is tax evasion, the government should fix it and not double-tax the 3% tax-paying population. That is no justice. I would be completely okay paying the elevated indirect tax if there was a reduction in the direct taxes, which has hardly happened. If a business man can claim a GST credit on some of the "so called" business expense, why cant a salaried person (who has already paid his tax) get the same benefit.

The government (this or any previous governments, and thus across political parties) only cares of protecting its vote base and milk the silent sufferers. No one is interested addressing the actual problem.

And as someone rightly pointed out, the government does it shamelessly, coz it knows it can get away with this. The current one a little more brazenly, coz it knows it does not have any opposition/competition.

Last edited by sachinayak : 25th March 2020 at 12:09.
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Old 25th March 2020, 12:47   #146
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

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Originally Posted by INNOVATOR View Post
While I am no votary for heavy taxation, being a typical salaried middle class taxpayer, I would rather have fuel taxed obnoxiously so that the brunt is borne by a much larger cross section of citizenry than the precious 3% who pay income taxes. Should the govt earn its revenues in an equitable manner through raising taxes on goods, taxation would be truly consumption driven and will hopefully bring down the direct taxes burden. For the folks complaining about high fuel prices, spare a thought for the farmer in Punjab or Haryana or any of the other states in India, who despite having hundreds of acres in landholding pays nothing at all in taxes and claims free electricity and loan waivers to boot..... sorry guys I’ve had enough of subsidising thieves and cheats.... pl. note that the intent was NOT to cast aspersions on only the farming community but the entire non-tax paying lot including business people, professionals and politicos who evade taxes to the max extent possible.
Please look beyond mere numbers, there is an entire socio-economic data behind this. 97 % are tax evaders and 3% run the country is not really the case and far from the truth, let me parse some mota-moti data.

Less than 3 percent file income tax return in India

Only 3.5 crore people, or 2.89 percent of the country's total population of more than 121 crore, file income tax return in India

Out of the 121 crore people might be someone's 1 year old son and a 95 year old grandma who might be earning no income. Neither need to file taxes. In fact, there are only 47 crore people who are actually working, which means only 47 crore have any sort of income.

Of these almost half are employed in agriculture. That is pretty much exempt from income tax. Our nation, like many others, have an idealistic attitude towards agriculture - a hangover from the agricultural past. We somehow assume that farmers are doing a more important job than rest of us, which I believe they are and they should not be taxed. Food is a survival item and people who make it need to be provided the best of everything, but anyway that is just my point of view.

In any case, that leaves only about 23 crore workers who work in factories and the service sector.

To pay income tax you need to be earning Rs. 5 lakhs or more per year now. Because, we don't want to tax the poor. Now, how many of the workers do you see around you make Rs. 41000+ or more per month? How about your maid? Not likely. How about the assistant sitting in the shop? Not likely.

Out of these about 15 % I assume must be making more than 5 lakhs per year, that leaves you with a realistic number of the people who are going to file taxes this year.

Sure there is tax evasion and lots of businesses and businessmen evade tax but its no where near what is being peddled around. Even people who earn less than 5 lakhs pay indirect taxes in whatever they spend, every rupee that goes out of their pocket, some amount it is tax. Wheels of an economy run when people have money to spend, not when they are taxed to death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiestarry View Post
I suppose Truman's sign solved everything. He was the same President who dropped Atomic Bombs on Japan well after Japan's forces had been defeated merely to test the effect of such a bomb on human settlements. A small matter of lakhs of civilian deaths. Choose your heroes wisely.
Sorry, Truman dropped the bomb because main land Japan refused to give up after being defeated on all the territories that were not theirs, there is a difference. Invasion and defeating Japan on its mainland would have cost lakhs of lives. Not justifying an atom bomb but if Japan had it, it would have dropped it too.

Let me copy paste some lines

"While the United States began conventional bombing of Japan as early as 1942, the mission did not begin in earnest until mid-1944. Between April 1944 and August, 1945, an estimated 333,000 Japanese people were killed and 473,000 more wounded in air raids. A single firebombing attack on Tokyo in March 1945 killed more than 80,000 people. Truman later remarked, “Despite their heavy losses at Okinawa and the firebombing of Tokyo, the Japanese refused to surrender. The saturation bombing of Japan took much fiercer tolls and wrought far and away more havoc than the atomic bomb. Far and away. The firebombing of Tokyo was one of the most terrible things that ever happened, and they didn't surrender after that although Tokyo was almost completely destroyed.”

In August 1945, it was clear that conventional bombing was not effective"

There is more, please go through this link--> https://www.nps.gov/articles/trumanatomicbomb.htm


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Originally Posted by giri1.8 View Post
Even I thought of the same, but then I need to start paying again after 21 days! Most people would be void of any income during this 21 day gap and will struggle to fill even a liter of fuel.
Totally, these guys can't think 21 days ahead too.

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Originally Posted by sachinayak View Post

And as someone rightly pointed out, the government does it shamelessly, coz it knows it can get away with this. The current one a little more brazenly, coz it knows it does not have any opposition/competition.
Exactly this.

Last edited by humyum : 25th March 2020 at 12:49.
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Old 25th March 2020, 13:06   #147
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

Its absurd how the government is taxing a commodity at insane levels, have they not learnt from other countries? You do not boost GDP and add development by taxing the hell out of people and become a socialist economy by showing that government is spending a lot. What govt spends 1rs for a business can get it done for half the price because of less bureaucratic levels, more overwatch . Lower Fuel Costs = More money is people's pocket = More Expenditure = Better Businesses = Higher GDP = More Taxes. India should be moving towards a Consumer-Manufacturing economy. Higher Fuel costs make manufacturing noncompetitive in the international market due to Indian products being costlier to manufacture and transport to the ports so that goes to other countries. I wish we had an economist running the finance of the country. Its good to dole out freebies, make monuments but only when you have a backbone on which you can do that and that is the tax paying businesses and individuals , if you crush those , long term you can say goodbye.

In US California has the highest taxes on fuel but its GDP is also bigger than India but they were able to do it not by taxing people but by promoting businesses to set up in Silicon Valley, Creating Hollywood, Developing ports, Public Transport and having high income individuals. California has one of the highest median incomes in US with most people in the tech sector. Once you have a high median income you can increase taxes on goods but not the other way around.
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Old 25th March 2020, 13:08   #148
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

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Originally Posted by fiestarry View Post
How and why demonetization affected a law abiding taxpayer is beyond me to this date ?
Why are you thinking about the tax payers only? What about the daily wage agriculture workers who didn't get work as people were just doing nothing in their lands? What about the small shop keepers who closed their shops because of no sales? What about the people lost jobs in auto industry because of the slowdown? All of them were dealing with the so-called back money?

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There is a lot of responsibility that every citizen must bear without cribbing about every action of the Govt;
Exactly my point. A person should be a responsible Indian before becoming a responsible party worker. And he / she should question the wrong doings of the govt - whether it is unnecessary fuel price hikes here or any other thing. Individual bias should not make them to praise whatever the govt do.

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The same people who complain that Janpath is being renovated at a certain cost will complain daily if it isn't done quoting examples of Europe and Singapore.
No problem in building the new Central Vistara now, if that is an absolute necessity. But building show pieces should be postponed to a later time. Now is the time to fight the current threat to the nation and its people. 20K crores for the vistara, 15K crores for the central financial package, and 20K crores package by a small state called Kerala. These numbers says a lot.

Last edited by romeomidhun : 25th March 2020 at 13:16.
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Old 25th March 2020, 13:27   #149
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

Corona virus is just an excuse to further the loot. They would have done it, corona or no corona. When has this dispensation ever reduced fuel prices in tandem with the market rates ? The person running the show using the consolidated funds of India should have, at the bare minimum, a basic understanding of finance and economics. Appointing a bunch of clowns from the nearest circus to do the job would make a laughing stock of the nation at the international level, nothing more nothing less. Education matters, a lot more than one would think.

Last edited by longhorn : 25th March 2020 at 13:28.
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Old 25th March 2020, 13:44   #150
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Default Re: Crude oil prices crash, but India refuses to slash fuel prices

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
20K crores for the vistara, 15K crores for the central financial package, and 20K crores package by a small state called Kerala. These numbers says a lot.
Wouldn't want this turning into a political debate, but the numbers don't say everything. It'll be interesting to check how many are yet to receive the relief measures as per the package announced during the floods in 2018, especially if you are not "connected". As a Keralite, I take packages with a pinch of salt.
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