[ABHI_1512]

After reading up the review once and knowing about the limited number on sale , i was wondering if i would ever see the Vellfire on the streets of Calcutta. Well, i saw one on the road yesterday and truth be told, the car (if you can call it that is) does have a road presence. But keeping all the technology aside, i would have liked the designers to be little innovative. The minivan design reminds of the modification jobs by DC designs

The front end looks a chrome shop on sale and the only thing i liked about the design is the lettering used in the back-EXECUTIVE LOUNGE since that's the only thing i noticed about the car while looking from outside and it kind of was amusing to find a lounge moving on the roads. Toyota might be testing waters for it's technology going forward but the car is a highly priced terrible ground to be used for that with no offence to the owners.

[Nithesh_M]

Managed to catch this thing on the way home from work. From the back i almost mistook it for an Innova in the dark grey or brown shade it was in. Hard to believe the thing actually costs almost a crore.

[amalji]

Any thoughts on the safety of this behemoth ? The crash test rating could be 5 stars. But, what I am worried about is the very small crumble zone ( read short bonnet area ). Is the crumble zone significantly lesser than vehicles of this size ? If that's the case, the impact absorption could be low and there are more chances of internal injury in case of an accident regardless of the lack of external bleeding. Are such factors taken into account during a crash test ?

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by amalji

But, what I am worried about is the very small crumble zone ( read short bonnet area ). Is the crumble zone significantly lesser than vehicles of this size ?

It only feels that way, because of the relative size of the car.

Check the side view here, and the width of the dash here.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by amalji

Is the crumble zone significantly lesser than vehicles of this size ? If that's the case, the impact absorption could be low and there are more chances of internal injury in case of an accident regardless of the lack of external bleeding. Are such factors taken into account during a crash test ?

I don't think there is a link between "length" of bonnet and crash safety. Almost all MPVs score 5 star rating in US/Europe (because they are used by families)

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by amalji

Any thoughts on the safety of this behemoth ? The crash test rating could be 5 stars. But, what I am worried about is the very small crumble zone ( read short bonnet area ). Is the crumble zone significantly lesser than vehicles of this size ? If that's the case, the impact absorption could be low and there are more chances of internal injury in case of an accident regardless of the lack of external bleeding. Are such factors taken into account during a crash test ?

The Smart for two has a 4 star Euro NCAP safety rating.

https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/smart/fortwo/7894

There is no relation between the bonnet and a crumple zone of a car. If that was the case all MPV's would fail crash safety tests.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by amalji

Any thoughts on the safety of this behemoth ? The crash test rating could be 5 stars. But, what I am worried about is the very small crumble zone ( read short bonnet area ). Is the crumble zone significantly lesser than vehicles of this size?

I'm normally against using foreign NCAP ratings but I believe it's a CBU so use the passive safety test results at your own risk.

These are JNCAP (Japanese NCAP) ratings. JNCAP is a Global NCAP member but the evaluation protocols are different, as with most other NCAPs. Do not directly compare star ratings because there are also differences in equipment.

Here you go:

Rating page: Toyota Alphard/Vellfire - JNCAP

Frontal offset:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu9HpIbVC04

Front full-width:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWa2C-MigS4

Side impact:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exRiJXOTkJQ

Whiplash sled test:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYSq8cXztrs

To the best of my knowledge (based on the Team-BHP preview) the Indian car does not get AEB and LSS so I haven't included those.

Originally Posted by amalji

If that's the case, the impact absorption could be low and there are more chances of internal injury in case of an accident regardless of the lack of external bleeding. Are such factors taken into account during a crash test ?

Of course! In most physical crash tests (except ones for insurance claim purposes, eg. bumper repair cost tests) the primary source for the ratings is the injury values from the dummies and not the structural performance. Whether poor structural performance directly translates to poor dummy readings is a separate issue. Generally, regulation tests (used by governments for homologation) rely primarily on injury values while consumer tests go a bit beyond and include extra penalties for things like poor structural performance and potential for injury in different seating position etc., to make sure manufacturers don't 'jugaad' their way through scoring well in the test by engineering the vehicle to provide protection only in that specific test. In any case, the risk of injury to body parts is the main source for the rating. These are based on well-developed criteria, for example the head injury criterion for the head, rib deflection for the chest and a lot more.

Here's the full technical report for the Vellfire but it's in Japanese.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Samurai

It only feels that way, because of the relative size of the car.

Thank you for the images. What I could derive from the images are.

• Even though the bonnet as such might be a bit small, there is enough buffer between the passenger compartment and the front end of the vehicle.
• Regardless, in the crash tests, I have never seen the windshield getting broken which seems to indicate that the real crumble zone ends before the start of the windscreen which still appears very close to the front end.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

I don't think there is a link between "length" of bonnet and crash safety. Almost all MPVs score 5 star rating in US/Europe (because they are used by families)

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The Smart for two has a 4 star Euro NCAP safety rating.

https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/smart/fortwo/7894

There is no relation between the bonnet and a crumple zone of a car. If that was the case all MPV's would fail crash safety tests.

In fact, I got this info on deceleration impacting our internal organs from one of the crash tests done on a small car ( The smart car ) where the anchor concluded the show by saying that regardless of how safe the cabin is, the internal organs will still not be able to take the amount of deceleration. It was a high speed crash test though unlike the NCAP ones. Regardless, the good thing is that as @ron178 mentions, the deceleration seems to be taken into account for giving the safety ratings by NCAP agencies.



One thing that I'm still curious about is how it performs in a small overlap crash test. Maybe, the sales volumes are not high enough globally for the NCAP / Insurance agencies to do such tests on Vellfire.

Originally Posted by ron178

Of course! In most physical crash tests (except ones for insurance claim purposes, eg. bumper repair cost tests) the primary source for the ratings is the injury values from the dummies and not the structural performance. Whether poor structural performance directly translates to poor dummy readings is a separate issue.

Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by amalji

In fact, I got this info on deceleration impacting our internal organs from one of the crash tests done on a small car ( The smart car ) where the anchor concluded the show by saying that regardless of how safe the cabin is, the internal organs will still not be able to take the amount of deceleration. It was a high speed crash test though unlike the NCAP ones.

I'm guessing you're referring to Fifth Gear's videos. They're nice fun to watch, but I would not suggest taking too much from them. They're fairly unscientific and very qualitatively evaluated. It's a mimicry of laboratory tests, but IMO you can't get much done by placing clothing store mannikins in the seats in place of test dummies, or, in the case of the Smart, no dummies at all! Any crash test should ideally aim to get as much data as possible from the test; Fifth Gear's just don't do that. Those tests did make for some very gruesome images for viewers which was probably their main aim, but the Smart's passenger compartment probably didn't deform as much as they would have expected at that speed (unlike that Focus they crashed), which of course made them say qualitatively that the driver would have likely suffered serious injury because of high forces, which I'm not denying because their theory has merit, BUT it would be best if they had placed instrumented dummies in the seats and could prove using dummy readings that there was a high risk of life-threatening injury to the organ(s). That, IMO, would have been a much more meaningful test.

Regardless, at speeds like those they crashed the Smart at, it's likely that the restraint systems might not be able to perform as designed.

Originally Posted by amalji

One thing that I'm still curious about is how it performs in a small overlap crash test. Maybe, the sales volumes are not high enough globally for the NCAP / Insurance agencies to do such tests on Vellfire.

Unfortunately, the only organisations that I know of who do consumer rigid-barrier small-overlap testing are the IIHS in North America and China's Insurance Automotive Safety Index (C-IASI), both of which are funded by the insurance industry. The main issue in a small overlap test is that either the longitudinal members (the crumple zone) are not hit, or the cross-member joining the two detaches from its mounts and rotates, effectively allowing the test barrier (or the opposing object) to intrude virtually unrestricted. Unless the car has been designed to handle these types of crashes, performance in these tests will generally be weak. The USA's NHTSA has an experimental oblique overlap test which also similarly misses the longitudinal beams and often causes extensive deformation of the passenger compartment. Germany's ADAC (who also incidentally tests Indian cars for Global NCAP) conducted a series of experimental deformable-barrier small-overlap tests on some European city cars and the results were mixed. Euro NCAP says they've studied data that shows those crashes are rare in Europe, though ADAC (who is a Euro NCAP accredited laboratory) has a different view. They even pointed it out as a limitation of Euro NCAP's frontal test while developing the new mPDB barrier (see page 2). Do also look at page 5 which should answer your question about the crumple zone's length.

ADAC's experimental deformable-barrier small overlap tests on city cars with short crumple zones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFTBuA0_qio

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Reviving a dead thread because I seem to be spotting these monsters on the road on a regular basis and just looked up the sales figures - looks like the 'Executive Lounge' has become a hit with the chauffer driven celebrities and the ultra rich!

More than a 100 units dispatched last month, for a car that costs around 1.2C in cities like Bangalore. That's quite something!

[petrol_power]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Reviving a dead thread because I seem to be spotting these monsters on the road on a regular basis.

More than a 100 units dispatched last month!

I too had the exact thoughts yesterday, when I saw 2 Vellfires yesterday. In Kerala, one of the initial buyer was movie actor Suresh Gopi and I used to peep whenever I saw the white Vellfire. But now, there are lots of Vellfires available and I spot them frequently.

[Shreyans_Jain]

The car is absolutely brilliant to be chauffeured around in. Shares many garages with the likes of S Class and 7 Series all over India. It is supremely comfortable and actually usable on typical Indian roads, where the low slung S will scrape. It is a favourite with the elderly super rich, as ingress and egress is far easier than the Germans. Also, Toyota reliability and peace of mind + good fuel efficiency.

It doesn’t compete with the super premium German sedans or SUVSs, it complements them. Customer base is same, usage it different.

[Sankar]

The vellfire seems to be in short supply especially the higher end variants, I am told, when I saw one getting prepped for delivery. It was a base variant which is ~92L ex-showroom. So my guess is that the sales numbers would definitely be higher if the supply was not restricted.

It is perfect for being chauffeured around, one sits high with a good view and makes absolute sense on our roads for a silent, relaxed and "cocooned from chaos outside" travel in the back seat.