[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by soarersc300

Camry is around 60 lacs on road. The german trio entry level sedans (A class, 2 series and A3) don't cost 75 lacs. In fact they cost much lesser than Camry. Even the next segment - A4 costs less than the Camry and 330 Li is just a few lacs more.

And so they should. Why would they be compared to a Camry which is an E Class/5 series sized car? And an A class with a wheezy Reanult 1.3 turbo with high maintenance, poor efficiency and low perceived reliability - no thanks.

Originally Posted by soarersc300

The point is if somone is buying a Camry it's for peace of mind ownership and is probably chauffeur driven. For self driving, the german trio offer much more engagement and refinement (especially in the transmission - Camry has a CVT) but obviously at higher running costs than the Camry.

If it is AMG or M series car yes, but a normal C class sedan or a 3 series with 1.5 liter turbo or a 2 liter turbo arent exactly engaging. And what exactly is the problem with a CVT? Do you know how an eCVT transmission in a Toyota hybrid system works? Do you know what causes the banding effect in a normal CVT transmission?

Originally Posted by soarersc300

The price alone is the same but the target customer as well as the product itself is as different as there could be.

Camry has street cred in India just the other Toyota, the LandCruise does. The Camry sold in India is also more luxurified compared to what is sold outside.

[soarersc300]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

And so they should. Why would they be compared to a Camry which is an E Class/5 series sized car? And an A class with a wheezy Reanult 1.3 turbo with high maintenance, poor efficiency and low perceived reliability - no thanks.

Who is comparing Camry with luxury cars? I have stated that they should not be compared as these are very different products, targeting different customer segments but just happen to overlap in prices. Also, the OP mentioned Camry is cheaper by 15 lacs to entry level luxury sedans to which I named the entry level sedans and also mentioned that they cost less than Camry. These are just statements made by me to remove the falsehoods spread on this forum and not to Compare Camry with the entry level Germans the way you or OP have.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

If it is AMG or M series car yes, but a normal C class sedan or a 3 series with 1.5 liter turbo or a 2 liter turbo arent exactly engaging. And what exactly is the problem with a CVT? Do you know how an eCVT transmission in a Toyota hybrid system works? Do you know what causes the banding effect in a normal CVT transmission?

I have purchased an A6 Tech couple of months ago and have test driven all sedans under a crore, including Camry. Forget Camry, even A6 (at 260 bhp with DCT) did not have the fun to drive quotient compared to 330 with lesser power but with ZF transmission. Camry can't hold a candle in front of these cars when it comes to performance or engagement, forget the RS, M or AMG lines. If you feel that a CVT transmission (which is the same in the new generation) is as good as a dual clutch or a 8 speed ZF transmission then that's fine - we can agree to disagree. That just means we are two very different types of customers and that's also why there are so many customers segments as each segment has different perception about what (for example) it means by driving dynamics and transmission performance.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Camry has street cred in India just the other Toyota, the LandCruise does. The Camry sold in India is also more luxurified compared to what is sold outside.

Yes Camry is a stellar product - it is known for reliability, fuel efficiency and is relatively cheap to maintain - which also means it's a different product as you don't associate such attributes with any of the german cars. That's ok too - there is a market for every attribute. There is a market for a Maruti (reliable, fuel efficient and cheap to maintain) too, and a large one at that.

There was (in my opinion) a needless comparison made by a forum newbe. I have pointed out the flaw in the comparison and so have you. Hope this doesn't end up hijacking the thread.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by soarersc300

Who is comparing Camry with luxury cars? I have stated that they should not be compared as these are very different products but just happen to overlap in prices. Also, the OP mentioned Camry is cheaper by 15 lacs to entry level luxury sedans to which I named the entry level sedans and also mentioned that they cost less than Camry. These are just statements made by me to remove the falsehoods spread on this forum.

So an E class sized Toyota is cheaper than a small german sedan and it does not skimp on equipment or reliability or performance or fuel efficiency either.

Originally Posted by soarersc300

I have purchased an A6 Tech couple of months ago and have test driven all sedans under a crore, including Camry. Forget Camry, even A6 (at 260 bhp with DCT) did not have the fun to drive quotient compared to 330 or 530 with lesser power but with ZF transmission.

For what it is worth an A6 is a jumped up VW Passat on a front wheel drive platform unlike Mercedes or BMW who have actually spent some money on creating a rear drive platform which is always more expensive to R&D and then build.

Originally Posted by soarersc300

Camry can't hold a candle in front of these cars, forget the RS, M or AMG lines. If you feel that a CVT transmission is as good as a dual clutch or a 8 speed ZF transmission then that's fine - we can agree to disagree.

A Camry isnt meant to either. I asked you what is the problem with Toyota's eCVT and I still havent got an answer. FYI, Toyota eCVT has nothing to do with traditional CVT transmissions except that it has infinite gear ratios, and therefore has none of the issues associated with traditional CVT transmissions.

I can also prove that in every quantifiable way how this eCVT is an almost perfect transmission for its intended purpose which is to combine the power of a combustion engine and an electric motor in parallel, in series or running as pure ICE or pure electric. This is another falsehood that I am trying to bust on the forum. "Camry is bad because CVT"

The only transmission that I will ever actively avoid however is a DCT due to its lack of reliability. Our forum alone is proof and its not restricted to India either.

[soarersc300]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

So an E class sized Toyota is cheaper than a small german sedan

So let me try this the third time - I hope this is not violating the forum policy - The small / entry level german sedans are A3 / A class / 2 series - are all cheaper than the Camry.

For the rest of your post I do not see a point to reply other than to mention to each his own.

[Maky]

Originally Posted by soarersc300

Who is comparing Camry with luxury cars? I have stated that they should not be compared as these are very different products, targeting different customer segments but just happen to overlap in prices.

They would naturally be compared because of the overlap in prices.

[Sensible_Speed]

Thing is, customers buying this car don't mind the price at all. That's because they're getting a car that's effectively the same as a Lexus ES, for a lower price. Honestly, the Camry hybrid has been eating into the sales of the ES300h for a long time now. My own circle has 3 different members who set out to buy the Lexus and brought home a Camry, because the comfort levels were almost identical and the Camry had a 5 lakh discount continuously back then.

[krishnakarthik1]

It's not that people buying the Fortuner over this are brainless fellows. If you have 50 lakhs to put on a car, you should have had some talent to get there in the first place.

The biggest issue is the ground clearance. The Germans I believe scrape less to some extent because of a bit stiffer suspensions but these soft suspensions ones really scrape. Maybe this new one is different. I don't know. We should wait for user reviews.

If companies are really serious about sedans they should make them especially for India with minimum 180mm GC and sacrifice some of the handling capabilities.

[soarersc300]

Originally Posted by Maky

They would naturally be compared because of the overlap in prices.

Fair enough. But let us compare on facts (when it comes to prices) as many posts in this thread mention that Camry is cheaper (by 15 lacs that too) than entry level german luxury cars.

Camry is a fantastic product and does not need any comparisons to prove its superiority. Its not a german luxury car and does not pretend to be one, no matter what is mentioned on this thread.

[Dr ST]

Dear All,
As an owner of Lexus ES (5000 km odo) and Tiguan Allspace (77000 km odo), I want to put forth some of the clarifications from my point of view:

1) E-CVT with hybrid does not have the rubber band effect which is prominent with CVT with non-hybrid engines. My Tiguan DSG jerks a lot more than ES in slow-moving traffic. ES is buttery smooth.

2) People buy according to their preferences. Even though there is a price overlap between Germans and Camry, people choose it for comfort, mileage and reliability. A hybrid will be still a viable option for the next 10 years.

3) All Germans need premium petrol and Lexus ES runs with normal petrol. I hope the Camry will also be the same.

My Tiguan has never let me down on the road. DSG is going strong. It had an engine pump replacement and had engine oil consumption issues. The peace of mind is a little less than the Japanese. Parts take their sweet time to reach.

To conclude people buy Germans for their advantages and Camry for its strengths.

Regards

[DicKy]

Camry being expensive in India compared to other markets... Here is a 3 year old thread (2022 Toyota Camry launched at Rs. 41.70 lakh) on the same subject when the previous gen facelift was launched. Guess the same discussions apply here.

Feels weird that the Camry is India's 5th or 6th oldest model brand and Toyota India's oldest model brand still on sale.

Originally Posted by Kelly66

But that gear knob looks so old school and AMT like. Even if they had put a short and stout one like the Skoda's/ Audi's it would have looked way better.

AMT like? Companies started to make the gear levers of AMTs less weird by modeling them on normal automatic transmission, and now a normal gearlever feels like a AMT one? They designed it for people to use it on a daily basis and used to certain muscle memory. Really can't wrap my head around the idea for short/stout/stubby gear selectors taking up space in the centre console. If it is select by wire, then why even bother with a gear selector in the centre console. IMO, just put it on the dashboard or best, make it column mounted. Skoda knows that. That is why while the Octavia gets the stubby sporty gearselector, the bigger Kodiaq and Superb has column mounted ones.

Originally Posted by Kelly66

Toyota have an XSE (Sport model) in the US which has a sport-tuned suspension, 232 hp, AWD, 19-inch wheels, a dual exhaust system with chrome tips, a more aggressive front end with a black grill insert, black side vents and a panoramic sunroof. India model has skipped these. For this price they could have easily given the top end and shaken up the market or at least given the customer a choice. Clearly missed a trick in my opinion.

C'mon. The typical Camry owner doesn't want the car to be flashy, let alone be loud and sporty. Not everyone wants sporty looking cars. Many just want a comfortable soft riding car without bringing attention. AWD? Most of the crossovers/SUVs in India don't have AWD, let alone a sedan. The XSE doesn't have electric steering wheel adjust and am pretty sure that no variant in the USA has adjustable powered rear seats or rear controls of any kind.

Originally Posted by krishnakarthik1

It's not that people buying the Fortuner over this are brainless fellows. If you have 50 lakhs to put on a car, you should have had some talent to get there in the first place.....The biggest issue is the ground clearance. The Germans I believe scrape less to some extent because of a bit stiffer suspensions but these soft suspensions ones really scrape. Maybe this new one is different. I don't know. We should wait for user reviews....If companies are really serious about sedans they should make them especially for India with minimum 180mm GC and sacrifice some of the handling capabilities.

Biggest reason why I thought Toyota India may do away with the Camry and launch the RAV4 or some other equivalent model instead. But nope. Not sure whether it is to protect the super profitable Fortuner or keep the Camry as a legacy brand.

Not just ground clearance. The Camry just like most Japanese family sedans squat down with weight.

[androdev]

Looks like it won't be long before deliveries begin:

[sunikkat]

Originally Posted by krishnakarthik1

If companies are really serious about sedans they should make them especially for India with minimum 180mm GC and sacrifice some of the handling capabilities.

No offence, but if manufacturers start doing that, it will be the final nail on coffin for whatever minimum leftover sedan lovers like me. We need sedan mainly for its handling capabilities and I will gladly give up on ground clearance for fun to drive and handling. If one need 180mm GC, then there are SUVs, crossovers, Coupe SUVs etc. Let them not touch whatever sedans are left in Indian market.

[manofinfinity]

Originally Posted by androdev

Looks like it won't be long before deliveries begin:

Attachment 2697109

How did you find the looks and road presence compared to previous gen camry?
Are you considering one?

[Kelly66]

Originally Posted by DicKy

AMT like? Companies started to make the gear levers of AMTs less weird by modeling them on normal automatic transmission, and now a normal gearlever feels like a AMT one? They designed it for people to use it on a daily basis and used to certain muscle memory. Really can't wrap my head around the idea for short/stout/stubby gear selectors taking up space in the centre console. If it is select by wire, then why even bother with a gear selector in the centre console. IMO, just put it on the dashboard or best, make it column mounted. Skoda knows that. That is why while the Octavia gets the stubby sporty gearselector, the bigger Kodiaq and Superb has column mounted ones.

I meant the shape of the gear knob/head. It looks like the one on the old gen Dzire AMT. A more rounded/stubby or even sleek ones like the BMW F30/G30 would have looked better. In fact, I prefer the current G28 knobless lever over this one. Of course, tastes differ. I am not referring to any positioning or design change of the gear lever.

Originally Posted by DicKy

C'mon. The typical Camry owner doesn't want the car to be flashy, let alone be loud and sporty. Not everyone wants sporty looking cars. Many just want a comfortable soft riding car without bringing attention. AWD? Most of the crossovers/SUVs in India don't have AWD, let alone a sedan. The XSE doesn't have electric steering wheel adjust and am pretty sure that no variant in the USA has adjustable powered rear seats or rear controls of any kind.

XSE is not flashy as you think. US has 4 options and multiple choices to pick and choose. When it comes to India - whether it is BMW or Toyota, they decide what a customer should buy. There is no concept of a configurator. That's why I said that at least a fixed config XLE and a fixed config XSE could have been given.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9SkT_udUUU

[androdev]

Originally Posted by manofinfinity

How did you find the looks and road presence compared to previous gen camry?
Are you considering one?

I haven't seen it in person. A friend shared a pic on whatsapp. Here is how I would compare outgoing vs new:

1. Exterior design. Outgoing model looks classier. Had they given Panoramic sunroof, it would have really elevated the design. Personally, not a fan of the new front design.

2. Interiors: Very evolutionary changes, mainly bigger ICE with carplay integration. Tan + Black combination is really nice. We have the pre-2018 Camry with Tan+Black and this would be my choice.

3. Looking at the brochure, the only new feature additions are: 1. 360 deg camera 2. 12.3 infotainment system 3. Drive assist package (lane assist, adaptive cruise, etc.). Rest of the features are available in the outgoing model.

4. Drivetrain improvements: Fuel efficiency will surely be improved in this model. I disliked the changes in 2019+ model compared to pre-2018 model. They clearly tried to cater to buyers who are expecting "sporty" drive from their Camry. 2019+ model has "sports" mode button and paddle shifters on the steering wheel. The transmission is jerky in stop-and-go traffic compared to the butter smooth 2018 model. I hope the new model prioritised smoothness over sportiness, but I have my doubts.

In summary, it's difficult to justify buying the outgoing model when a new one is already here but the only compelling reason for me to buy the new model is to get the car in tan+black interior combination which I am a fan of. I have no value for 360 deg camera, larger ICE screen and drive-assist features. I would be equally happy to buy the outgoing model if there is a substantial price difference (say 15-20%).