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Old 3rd September 2010, 18:39   #16
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
Quality is an attitude, and should be designed into the system. Not something that's implemented as an afterthought.
If quality is designed into the system, then their products would cost a lot more, wouldn't they? Then they would lose their 'VFM' tag and no one would buy them if they are priced at Toyota, Honda levels because of 'image'. I think it's a well accepted fact that a lot of R&D is done on the first batch of unsuspecting customers and jugaad engineering is done to fix those issues. I don't think one can have the cake and eat it too which is what is being expected at the moment. If one wants quality, be prepared to pay for it.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 19:21   #17
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hhmmm.... @gilead, but that's not the point.
You want to have both quality and reliability with VFM pricing.
Then how did the japanese succeed?
They didn't offer either one. They offered best of both the worlds.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 20:18   #18
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Originally Posted by amtak View Post
Well Rush,

If I have to respond to this, I would say, I would still think 10 times before buying a mahindra or a TATA above 10L. The reasons being:
  • Poor fit and finish of the interiors. Classic cases being of Grande and Xylo. I can digest the way they look, but once inside, I cannot adjust to the fact that their interior looks cheap even for a sub 10 lakh rupee vehicle. I do not like the dashboards of Xylo or Grande. Rio has a better dashboard!
  • Dealer attitude. I had logged an enquiry for a Xylo and Grande on carwale.com. I am getting regular calls from carwale, but not from dealers to whom my details are forwarded.
  • "Most stolen cars" - TATA and Mahindra cars are most likely to stolen from road (Bolero, Scoprio, Sumo and Safari). I would like to have a sound sleep after paying more than 10L.
  • "Attitude change" People have to develop an +ive attitude to look cars from TATA and Mahindra. They still think that these two players are old school; where as both are the major players of the future in world markets.
1 - Poor fit & finish MIGHT be the one that keeps the cost sub-10 L. Bcoz if you see Grande, there is technically not much flaw in there.
2 - Dealer attitude - Something that Manufacturers cant do much and wherever could, it has been done - like TATA taking off Manipal Motors. However, in general the company owned dealers are good (Concorde in case of TATA). Not sure of M&M.
3 - I dont know if there are enough facts to say that TATA & MM are the most stolen cars, then, it means its should be hot cakes I dont think, its really true one.
4 - Attitude problem - Manufacturers cant do anything much about it. People have to start believing in them instead of blindly paying premium to imported vehicles.

NO OFFENCE please, But, From your remarks beginning, I have to assume that you too have the point 4 for your own reasons !

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Old 3rd September 2010, 21:17   #19
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I like the way most car companies have a different branding for their premium vehicles (Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus and the likes). Once you establish this differentiator, it's relatively easy to focus on these models in all perspectives. You can have different corporate focus, different dealership, customer service. Then you add the value to these cars which justifies their pricing.
The idea should be to build different vehicles for the masses and classes.

I have a Xylo and I am happy with what it offers when looked against the price I paid. Would I like few improvements on it? Most certainly only if they were offered for free.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 21:21   #20
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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
If quality is designed into the system, then their products would cost a lot more, wouldn't they? Then they would lose their 'VFM' tag and no one would buy them if they are priced at Toyota, Honda levels because of 'image'. I think it's a well accepted fact that a lot of R&D is done on the first batch of unsuspecting customers and jugaad engineering is done to fix those issues. I don't think one can have the If one wants quality, be prepared to pay for it.
Er, in this case, they are pricing above the toyota price point. And if you want to play with toyota, you gotta be good. GM, Ford etc are having a hard time in the US. at this price point,
Regarding quality, they are already paying that sort of money. Nobody wants, say climate control, ABS/TC/EBD/AWD if they just 'mostly' work. While value for money does work, its effect decreases as you go up the value chain. A guy who buys a diesel indica because its more value than a swift cannot be compared to the guy who buys a porsche because its more value than a ferrari

Last edited by greenhorn : 3rd September 2010 at 21:25.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 21:49   #21
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Most of the posts on this thread are not foccused on the topic. You can list a thousand things you want to have in a million rupee vehicle but it all adds to the cost. There will be people who pay for snob value but there are also people who pay for utility. If all the buyers pay for snob value Hyundai genesis would not have been a hit today nor have companies like toyota, honda, hyundai, kia etc existed today.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 22:20   #22
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That should not necessarily be the case.

For example, Alto that costs 3 Lakh can easily be trusted to work fine for 5 - 6 years and not leave you stranded on highway. By "Quality" I mean vehicle should keep performing as it should for its expected lifetime. Only downtime should be scheduled maintenance.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 22:21   #23
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Hi All

IMO the much required point will be "Customer Service" or After Sales & Service.

Maruthi has improved a lot in that front. in chennai CARS inda picks my car when ever i call them and even if it was a complaint on a vibration.

They have come to my house to check my brakes once when the brake light started burning.

I doubt even if HONDA and TOYOTA provide such service to their customers .

Ok my expectations are ..........

BEST Quality product
Excellent customer serivce from sales to ***
Better features --not that awful voice asking you wear seat belt and telling you that the one you are driving is a POWERFUL vehicle
Space - A Pakka eight/five seater like the onces you see abroad
refined engine
Dont expect cheap cost cuttings -if its premium vehicle ,make us feel premium !
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Old 3rd September 2010, 22:39   #24
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Would you spend well over 10 lakh rupees on a Tata or Mahindra? If so, what would you expect of the product?
Why not? My expectations will be as follows:
1) It should be a SUV of the size of Fortuner.
2) No compromise on fit and finish, inside out.
3) Current 2.2ltr diesel will do.
4) Should not share anything looks wise with their current vehicles.
5) Airbags+ABS+Traction control.
6) Should feel planted at the speed of 170km/hr.
7) A.S.S., I don't expect 10/10 but 6.5-7/10 will do.
8) All the goodies that I have in my Punto E-PK.
9) All this for Ex-Show 10Lakh rupees.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 22:45   #25
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After having clocked reasonable distances on both the Scorpio and the Safari, I would pay more than a million INR to a Safari 4 wheel drive if it were manufactured by M&M.

Coming to the Aria and the W, I would wait for them to stabilise themselves for a couple of years like all other TATA and M&M products prior to deciding their worth. Too early to comment since both these products are supposed to a quantum leap for both these manufacturers.
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Old 3rd September 2010, 23:04   #26
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i read in this month's aci issue that a few arias have been sent to jag and LR factory in uk to improve the fit and finish of the interior
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Old 3rd September 2010, 23:20   #27
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Essentially, Tata and Mahindra need to learn from Titan and Indian Hotels - see how they are able to satisfy both cost conscious customers (Sonata, Ginger) and luxury seeking customers (Titan Raga, Xylo, Taj).

These two companies have been able to differentiate their 'premium' products from the mass market by offering the customer
a. 'First time right' products
b. Creating the right kind of 'image' - afterall you want people to recognize you have bought an 'expensive' product - also called 'Aspirational value'?
c. Correct Price - VFM is still important! the customer has to feel he's getting more than what he's paid for! For ex: When one has paid 10+ for an Aria, he/she doesnt want to pull the same levers/handles that a 3+ Indica has! I know part sharing is the order of the day, but there are ways to go about it - learn from VW/Audi/Mercedes/BMW
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Old 4th September 2010, 10:19   #28
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Though almost all the points are already covered here, I just would like to add my 5 paise worth, from personal experience

1. After 2 years of buying the car, the interior should not look like its 15 years old (for Tata)
2. When I turn the car, it should not go "KEEEEOOOWL" (again for Tata)

I think Tata vehicles being VFM is a misnomer - they are Features For Money. Their early tagline 'More car per car' is apt. Whether these features are value depend on their functioning properly
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Old 4th September 2010, 10:31   #29
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Without sounding like a dictionary, if I pay Rs 10 lakhs for a vehicle, I demand and expect the following from the vehicle/ownership experience unconditionally:

From the vehicle:

1. Build quality commensurate with its price. Currently, the Scorpios and Safaris build quality resembles a 3-lakh segmenter. And by build quality, I mean the following succintly:
  • Quality of interior materials - touch, feel, plushness and fit
  • Convenient positioning of all controls: I am not interested in reaching near my ankle to turn on the AC/ICE
  • Driver ergonomics: I should feel relaxed after hours of continuous driving (which is what the SUVs are meant for), and not like I've been violated!
  • Universal standard interior colors: I dont care for shades of gold for my dashboard/seats
  • Quality of switches and controls: Look at a Euro car to understand. The switches cannot feel like they'd been put in as an afterthought having been purchased from the local chor bazaar.
  • Doors/external build and finish: The vehicle should feel that its built for a long time when I shut its doors. I dont want a tinny, squeaky body build quality. I also expect that the paint quality is exemplary.
2. Handling

If Toyota can make their Innova handle like a car, I dont see why Tata/Mahindra cant work towards that for their SUVs.

Remember- being an Indian homegrown manufacturer should be a matter of pride, and not an excuse to justify slack to pass on to the always-ignorant customer. Towards this, I want Tata and Mahindra to be proactive in giving capable products to their customer, not reactive and lethargic at that. In today's environment, being proactive is the only differentiator between a good and bad manufacturer.

3. Engine/mechanicals

When somebody is spending Rs 10 lakhs for a vehicle, they will feel cheated if its power-weight ratio is lesser than a 3- lakh rupee car. Besides, India is moving to bigger engines (notwithstanding the government rules for entry-level cars). Gone are the days when you can put a 68 bhp engine in a 1.5 ton car. The norm of today, for comfort and ease-of-driving, are more powerful engines. Do not give unjustifiably detuned and anemic engines.

4. Reliability

One of the biggest factors. Selling product platforms as old as the pyramids, under a cloak of no-questions-asked parts-replacement warranty, is certainly NOT the way to establish your brand recall. You very well know that if new vehicles in developed markets failed the way they do in India, the manufacturer would have paid millions of dollars in customer-settlements. Do not think you can get away with the poor consumer-protection laws in India, its just a matter of time before a case is publicized, and you then lose out on the most important aspect that is more invaluable than the money you saved on R&D : Brand Image.

Even if 1/100 vehicles is delivered with a major technical glitch, that is one-too-many.

From the ownership experience:

1. I want to be treated nothing less than a king for having invested my second-largest financial investment after a house, in your Rs 10-lakh product.

Everyone in the sales and service centers, have to be very conscious of this fact/requirement and treat me the way I deserve. It is unacceptable to be rubbing shoulders with all the cabs/pick-ups in your city, when you leave your vehicle for service.

2. I want regular follow-ups that are actioned, from the manufacturer about my satisfaction levels with your product throughout its ownership with me.

This is what I could come up with. If you feel its brutally straight-forward, thats because its intended to be like that. Feedback, is always best delivered, brutal and straight-forward for effective actioning.
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Old 4th September 2010, 11:24   #30
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Just a gentle reminder. The tata safari is 12.8L on road for the top end variant. I haven't checked the M&M price list for a while I'm pretty certain that they already have something up there.

A lot of their vehicles are purpose-built and maybe they do serve (some) purpose. And its not that people don't buy it!

Secondly I would like to commend them for the fact that they are truly putting in efforts to catch up to today's product and customer demand!

There is only ONE thing they need to do. ONE: Pay ATTENTION! That's it! It'll solve more than half their issues.
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