[Harrie]

I always thought diesel engines were more tolerant to adulterated fuels than petrol engines. What is this I am hearing now about diesel engines (Toyota Innovas to be a little specific) having problems with adulterated fuel?

[prkothan]

Slightly and but make sense to some extent.

Why is Fiat not offering CRDi diesel technology in India?
• CRDi technology is extremely sensitive to quality of diesel since the pump operates at a pressure of 1200 plus bar. Any adulteration with kerosene or water causes expensive damage to the high pressure injection equipment

• The Indian diesel market is spread across rural and urban cities with major markets being the rural towns where quality of fuel is very poor. Hence for 'B' and 'C' segment cars it is not sensible to offer such sophisticated technology.

• In cars like the Mercedes Benz it is possible to offer CRDi since such cars are used in primarily urban markets and even then they have problems.

• Please note that Fiat is the pioneer in CRDi technology and were the first in the world to develop this technology. At the appropriate time and suitable product range we will offer CRDi technology in the Indian market.

How does your engine compare with the CRDi with respect to the technology / power.

• The 1.9 D-Tech engine offered on our range is modern with the latest electronic fuel injection technology.
• It delivers adequate power and torque for stress free and safe driving with adequate reserve power.
• The 1.9 diesel Palio does not have the added sophistication and complication of the CRDi engine in terms of turbo charger/high pressure pump. Hence while providing good power and refinement it does not have the problems associated with Common rail technology.

What do you mean by electronic fuel injection pump?

• Engine Management System - The heart of a diesel engine is its fuel injection system. In case of the 1.9 D - Tech engine the injection system consists of an electronically managed mechanical pump from Delphi/Lucas.

• It works on an advanced fuel/air system management and employs a 16 bit electronic control unit (ECU) to meter precise quantity of fuel to be injected into the cylinders with accurate timing (injection advance) and pressure, to achieve the best possible engine performance in terms of power, fuel consumption, emissions and driveability.

• The ECU is a microprocessor, which is present in all MPFI petrol cars and this ECU ensures precise combustion under various operating conditions resulting in superior combustion characteristics of the engine

• During gear shifting while accelerating and decelerating the system further modulates the fuel supply to ensure a smooth ride by employing a clutch sensor which modulates engine rpm.

• Very few diesel engine cars have ECU in their system. Fuel metering and timing is an approximation in such engines.

• In the case of the microprocessor controlled 1.9 D-Tech the guessing is eliminated.This ensures low emissions, crisp throttle response and minimal Noise, Vibration,Harshness (NVH) levels. The 1.9 D Tech can easily meet Euro III norms (when required).

Note from Support Staff : Post edited.

ps - next time try to be less lazy and type out the words instead of copying and pasting.

[prkothan]

Mods,
Please delete my post, cut and paste cruelly goofed up.

[oldmobile]

This news alarmed me as I am contemplating buying a G2 Diesel. I talked to Customer Relations Manager at Nandi Toyota. He told me that this problem used to happen from day one due to adulterated fuel (with sulphur and acid?). He said that when Toyota became aware of this problem they modified the fuel pump. He assured me that all the Innova Diesels being sold now have the modified fuel pump. If there is a smoke problem, Toyota will replace the fuel pump under warranty.

[bigman]

This one India Oil petrol pump near my village got raided and sealed for selling dodgy diesel. Within a few days it was trading again and they still sell dodgy diesel mixed with kerosene.

Good to hear Toyota are on the ball and acknowledge the problem.

[amit]

I talked to Customer Relations Manager at Nandi Toyota. He told me that this problem used to happen from day one due to adulterated fuel (with sulphur and acid?). He said that when Toyota became aware of this problem they modified the fuel pump.

Are you sure you can trust what the dealer tells you? They are in the business of selling cars. If a prospective customer asks them about any problems do you think they will tell you to wait till it's resolved by the company? I suggest you talk directly to Toyota about this issue. Let Toyota tell you the same thing that the dealer told you. Just because it's a Toyota dealer doesn't mean he is not going to BS you.

[rdp]

I would like to thank all you good folks who have taken the time to reply to my post.

What I have gathered from the initial replies so far is:

1. There does seem to be an excessive black smoke problem
2. Others have also noticed a degradation in performance of their vehicle.

Can you guys enlighten me specifically on the following:

1. What is System D, how is it to be used and where can I get it? Also, if additive laden diesel in not recommended for CRDi engines then is System D Ok to use?

2. What is the reason premium diesels are not recommended for CRDi engines? If they are supposed to reduce carbon deposit then what harm can they cause? Is it because of higher probabilty of contamination in premium diesels by the pump owners? If one is able to get unadulterated premium diesel say from a company owned pump then wudn't that be better? Also, I had specifically noticed some improvment in my drive quality after I got Hi-Speed diesel filled.

3. What is the real significance of black smoke (and thus the carbon deposit)? Does the carbon choke the fuel injectors, fuel pump, etc? I am sure it must be doing that otherwise there would not be a drop in engine performance. I would appreciate if somebody could throw light on this. I read on the internet somewhere that in case of CRDi, carbon deposit does not choke the fuel injectors since the combustion pressure is very high, it just gets deposited in the exhaust pipe. Is that true?

[amit]

rdp, you need to go and tell your dealer that you can read right through his BS. Go and call his bluff. Does he think he is talking to an idiot? Ask him to show some respect to the intelligence of the customer.

To use "normal" diesel without any additives

This is news to me! Ask him if this is being recommended by Toyota or by his dealership. Why shouldn't you be allowed to use premium diesel if you want to? i used 97 Octane on my Palio S10 and it never had any problem. Ask the service manager if he advises his kids to have fats and not proteins in their diet.

To rev my car hard 10 times once a week so that all accumulated carbon deposits get released from my exhaust pipe.

I would have thrown the keys of the car on his desk if he said that to me. come on we are in 2006 not in 1850's. Tell him if you wanted to do all this crap you would bought a tractor. Is this what Toyota is recommending? So this is the legendary Toyota technology? Tell him to put all this down in writing. Send a copy of that to the company. If Toyota stands by what the dealer says then sell the car and buy a more technologically advanced Hyundai.

Don't give up on this problem. You have paid premium price for a Toyota and if you don't keep up on this the company and it's dealers will not bother to solve this issue. Once again, don't think that it's Toyota so your problem will be taken care of.

What is interesting to me is how so many people are now slowly coming out with details on the problems they are having with the Innova Diesel. I remember reading somewhere on this forum, if it's Ford, Fiat, Maruti then pleasure is private and pain is public but for a Honda/Toyota pleasure is public and pain is private. What amazes me is how people are not able to accept that they have a Toyota that's troublesome! Do keep us updated on whether your problem is being solved to your satisfaction. It will be interesting to see how the company and dealers deal with this issue.

[tsk1979]

@rdp

1./2. system D is available at Bharat Petroleum pumps. You add 1ml/liter. So full tank 50 ltrs means 50ml of system D in the fuel. As for telling you not to use high speed diesel etc., its all excuses.
3. Black smoke means unburnt diesel. i.e. the fuel mixture is too rich. this can be due to 2 causes. First, the fuel mixture is too rich(more fuel less air) so you get partially burnt or unburnt fuel in exaust. Happens during cold starts, high acceleration etc.,. Second reason, adulterated fuel not burning completely. Now about no 2 you cant do much, but if even on good diesel your car smokes a lot it means your fuel pump is not pumping in the right amount. This can be due to lots of other causes too but it seems in case of Toyota its the fuel pump

[filcord]

I had a diesel Ford for a few years.
I agree with tsk, the black smoke problem is not really due to bad fuel.

Toyota is trying to shake off their blame. The fuel pump is the culprit and it appears Toyota will have to re-enginner the pump for better results. Diesel fuel pumps are highly sensitive and delicate machines. They are the heart of the diesel engine.

Someone else mentioned about air in the system. This will result in a "hunting" effect, where the engine misses or seems to be gasping for breath. Revving hard for a few seconds will purge the fuel lines of the air, and will restore the performance.

[sandeepmdas]

By all chance, this could be a dumb question, so let me take anticipatory bail...
- could this (excessive emission) be related to the weather conditions by any chance? Something related to the onset of winter?
I know the owners of 4-5 innovas personally (in Kerala) and apparently they dont have any problem yet, atleast in public...

@rdp, welcome to the Team...

[tsk1979]

Onset of winter is good news. Except for cold starting issues in case of faulty glow plugs, which low ambient temps your engine becomes more efficient.

[tsk1979]

More air and less fuel will give you white smoke

[Mpower]

The adulterated fuel is just an excuse by Toyota dealers to save their skins.

Obviously its a global problem for Toyota on their D-4D engines. I am sure there will be a massive recall on this part.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by Mpower

T
Obviously its a global problem for Toyota on their D-4D engines. I am sure there will be a massive recall on this part.

Woooo! That would effectively kill their diesel range, at least here. Once a rumour spreads its very difficult to contain the damage. And we know that diesel buyers are very finicky when it comes to maintenance and costs - one word about a potentially 'bad' engine and its curtains for that model!

Perhaps thats why they're postponing the Fortuner launch here? Obviously its only the diesel that will sell in this market, and maybe they're trying to sort out the issues before another launch.

Innova sales have reportedly tapered off over the last couple of months after that euphoric month where they cleared most of their backlog on the higher spec models.