[VIPER_SRT]

Originally Posted by HPP

Give it a little time and they will be plentiful I assure you. Right now they are all under warranty so they do not need to go anywhere else but the dealer.. Everyone knows that. Once they get past the years or mileage of the warranty, they will flood in. Thats the way of this market.

Believe me, I have nothing personal against MB or any Euro brand. Personally I like what they do, I just wish they were reliable. Once they are, I will start to purchase them.

I'm a proud owner of my Merc and I dont need to hear it from CR about its reliability. As I mentioned earlier, I bought mine in July 2006 and clocked 24K till date. It'll be under warranty till 2010/50K. According to you if the car is not reliable then I should have faced problems by now (18 months) and would have been covered under warranty. Give me a break! Just b'cos you had a bad unit in the past doesnt mean its the future. No car is trouble free. We traded in the Honda accord for Pilot becuase the "Check engine light" problem. It started coming all the time after 40K miles on it. The pilot tailgate Pnuematic unit went off at 25K miles and since it was under warranty, was replaced free of cost.

I love Merc the day I bought it and even now. I'm trading off my pilot for MB GL 550 by September. It has been awarded the best SUV in its class 2 yrs in a row and my friend bought it the same time I did. My other friend in CA bought a certified preowned 2002 ML 320 in 2005 and has clocked 95k miles on it. He had a problem of Seat not getting flat, well bcos he literally broke it by force. He's now going for C Class this summer after he test drove it last month. We discuss all the time being owners of MB about the issues we have.
Well, we might be either too pocessive for the MB brand, covering the negative facts or paranoid.

I dont know MB's prior 2005 and wont comment on them since I dint own one. You have one owner talking to you in this thread and you want to believe CR which relies on reviews from people who might not be the actual owners.

Anywa bottom line, no one's forcing no one to stcik to one brand. what matters is the "feeling" when you approach the door of your car. In your case it wasn't good! Period..

[1100D]

Originally Posted by HPP

In Denmark, MB is not a prestige car it is a working class(taxi) car, the Volvo brand is highly regarded there. My brother lived there during a law school exchange program.

I agree that they use it as Taxi's there (almost throughout Europe), but that is to acknowledge their usual trouble free durability. Nothing that dilutes its status.

Personally owned Mercs (different models/engine sizes) are regarded higher in the social order any day over a Volvo, and that is everywhere on the globe.

[VIPER_SRT]

Originally Posted by HPP

I have plenty of friends and family who continue to buy MB and other Euro's(for the last 30 years), and others have sworn to never buy again. They just deal with, but acknowledge the issues. So they will also have driveways like you mention.

Your circle is stinking rich! So many MB owners! who are "others" in this context! Well I'm waiting for the latest official stats from MB. Will share with you all.

Originally Posted by HPP

In Denmark, MB is not a prestige car it is a working class(taxi) car, the Volvo brand is highly regarded there. My brother lived there during a law school exchange program.

In India, Hyundai Sonata is considered as a luxury car, here!!
" " Ford Explorer(endeavor) " " SUV, here!!

Well coming back to the topic, C class has been built tough, has used virtual real time simulating protype to test its ruggedness, life of the car for the first time in the auto industry and I'm sure will prove itself over the time.
2008 Mercedes-Benz C-Class - Newcomers - Motor Trend

[1100D]

Originally Posted by VIPER_SRT

2008 Mercedes-Benz C-Class - Newcomers - Motor Trend

Virtual/digital Prototyping does account for the physical forces/stresses that the car has to endure. However what plagued MB was the degradation of certain materials (mainly electrical insulations), sometimes biodegradable, over a period of time. The switchover to those materials were done to account for some environmental laws in Germany. The problem actually showed itself after a few years of implementation. Hence there was not a quick turnaround.

The newer wiring etc are of better materials.

[vasudeva]

First rule of comparison, do not compare apples to oranges. MB figures include Smart, but BMW figures given by me do not include Mini.

Of course, MB is doing well in Jan-Feb 2008 as quoted by you. The figure I quoted was for passenger cars. In passenger cars in Europe, BMW sold 53589, whereas MB sold 58991. Of course, in the US, MB trails Lexus by a significant amount. Shocker: It also trails BMW. Another shocker: It trails Lexus and BMW not only in cars but also in overall sales. Perhaps the US consumers are not aware of MB's virtues and perception is lagging reality.

In developing countries where people are enamored by the brand (as they should be), MB is a status symbol. MB also sells in all the 2-bit countries where BMW or Lexus are not present.

But look at the markets where it has competition, and then see where it stands. Trails in the US and losing share in Europe. These 2 markets account for around 50% of world car sales.

Perhaps things have improved in 2008. But that shall be known only in 2009-10 when these cars have put some mileage. As of now, pre-2007 MBs are mostly good to drive but mostly clunkers.

[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by VIPER_SRT

Vasudeva: you have to get your facts right. You seem to hate Merc with passion.

I do not hate MB cars. If my company gave me a car, even then I would prefer a Lexus. As for owning, I would prefer to pay EMI for a house which is an investment, rather than a MB which only goes downhill.

You seem to forget or not aware that for better or worse, CR and JD Power count for a lot in the US.

[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by merve_extreme

I'm saying that the quality is improving and you are saying its at the worst.The JD power report i posted satisfies my point that Mercedes cars are improving fast and that Mercedes is serious about quality.Now prove yours with a creditable,reliable and current source of information.

Even if you consider CR to be biased, and JD Power to be better, perhaps a better indicator which consumers see is vehicle dependability survey (VDS). IQS means nothing as even a Maruti 800 or a MB will be high quality in the first 90 days (the period of JD Powers IQS). Could you care to post JD Powers' VDS.

[vasudeva]

Since some people have quoted JD Powers IQS, but not its 3-year VDS for 2007 here it is (the first page since it contains Lexus, BMW, and MB):

[VIPER_SRT]

Originally Posted by vasudeva

I do not hate MB cars. If my company gave me a car, even then I would prefer a Lexus. As for owning, I would prefer to pay EMI for a house which is an investment, rather than a MB which only goes downhill.

so you are saying Lexus is an investment and its value increases over time? Every automobile value depreciates pal! I know people who bought houses worth $800K - 1 Mil and they still have Camry or Accord parked in their driveway. They just consider auto as a means of commuting from Point A to Point B. It all depends on the individual perspective.

Originally Posted by vasudeva

You seem to forget or not aware that for better or worse, CR and JD Power count for a lot in the US.

CR never asked me to rate the automobiles I own and I never looked for ratings on CR or JD power before I bought any of my cars. I dont know how/where CR pick the actual owners for reviews. Thats their business though. I usually go by word of mouth and after talking to actual owners. Thats how I do my shopping. If you go by CR fine, but dont vouch for "lots" of people in US. You dont know that for sure!

[vasudeva]

Perhaps CR is unreliable, and JD Powers IQS is reliable but not the VDS. Recently, Fortune (another unreliable mag if ever there was one) listed the world's most admired companies and also America's.

Toyota was the world's 3rd most admired company (behind Apple and GE). BMW was 9th and Honda 18th. No other auto company in the top 50.

World's Most Admired Companies 2008: Top 50 | FORTUNE

Toyota was also America's 5th most admired company.

DaimlerChrysler did find mention as the world's 3rd most admired auto company. But the real howler was that BMW was 1, and Toyota 2.

World's Most Admired Companies 2008: Industry: Motor Vehicles | FORTUNE

The biggest howler from Fortune: In quality of products, BMW was 1, Daimler (not DaimlerChrysler) was 2, and Toyota 3. Similar rank in innovation. In global competitiveness, Toyota 1, BMW 2 and MB 3.

In none of the 9 parameters was MB 1. To be fair, it was either 2 or 3. But BMW was No. 1 in 5 (innovation, people management, social responsibility, long term investment, and quality of products/services). Toyota was no 1 in the other 4 (use of corporate assets, quality of management, financial soundness, and global competitiveness).

Perhaps in 2009, since things have now changed, Daimler will become 1 in all ranks. But this report was in Feb 2008 and so is recent.

[vasudeva]

Here is the JD Power VDS for US brands for 2007:

[vasudeva]

Since the discussion was about the WSJ C-Class before it got shifted, here is CR's take on C-Class reliability for 1998-2007.

[GTO]

5 pages up, and what are we arguing about? Whether the new Mercedes' are reliable or not?

As an owner of a post-2006 Benz, and having access to plenty of first-hand ownership reports from Indian Mercedes owners, as well as interactions with innumerable Mercedes service advisors from Mumbai, let me put forth some facts:

1. Yes, Y2005 onward Mercedes' are better in quality and reliability, but only when compared to how they were built 5 years earlier. Benz reliability is still NOT a patch on the competition.

2. Problems aplenty with even the new S-Class. Jury is out on the new C-Class though I will surely provide an update within the next 12 months.

3. Usual suspects dominate the problem list. Air suspension, ESP, air-conditioning and electronics. Of late, I am seeing reports of problematic front suspension components (non-air type). However, will have to wait for more reviews before confirming.

[HPP]

Originally Posted by VIPER_SRT

so you are saying Lexus is an investment and its value increases over time? Every automobile value depreciates pal! I know people who bought houses worth $800K - 1 Mil and they still have Camry or Accord parked in their driveway. They just consider auto as a means of commuting from Point A to Point B. It all depends on the individual perspective.



CR never asked me to rate the automobiles I own and I never looked for ratings on CR or JD power before I bought any of my cars. I dont know how/where CR pick the actual owners for reviews. Thats their business though. I usually go by word of mouth and after talking to actual owners. Thats how I do my shopping. If you go by CR fine, but dont vouch for "lots" of people in US. You dont know that for sure!

CR doesn't ask anybody. If you want to be part of the data, they send it to all subscribers, it is their choice to fill it out or not. And if I am correct, non subscribers can be part of the data by just requesting the forums to fill out.

You seem to be awful suspicious or paranoid about "if" the people are actual MB owners. I don't see the logic in it? Do you believe there are people out there who really care enough to fill out hundreds of forms just to change the values in the CR results? I do not think anyone does this and it's quite awkward that you seem to bring this up time and time again. Honestly it is a bit weird(I'm not trying to be offensive).

BTW, I'm not sure what you were asking earlier about who the "other" was in my post, if you clarify what the question was, I'll answer.

[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by VIPER_SRT

so you are saying Lexus is an investment and its value increases over time? Every automobile value depreciates pal! I know people who bought houses worth $800K - 1 Mil and they still have Camry or Accord parked in their driveway. They just consider auto as a means of commuting from Point A to Point B. It all depends on the individual perspective.



CR never asked me to rate the automobiles I own and I never looked for ratings on CR or JD power before I bought any of my cars. I dont know how/where CR pick the actual owners for reviews. Thats their business though. I usually go by word of mouth and after talking to actual owners. Thats how I do my shopping. If you go by CR fine, but dont vouch for "lots" of people in US. You dont know that for sure!

Of course, every car is a depreciable asset but for me, a MB or a Lexus is unacceptable self indulgence (similarly my car Corolla may be self indulgence for a lot).

Perhaps I do not vouch for lots of people. But a lot of people are vouching for MB cars by buying a Lexus which is the best selling luxury car in the US. That is a fact.

Finally, I wish you would stop getting personal. We know that you have a MB and that puts you perhaps in the top percentile. That does not mean that others have lesser resources.

Final fact, media (reputed) is claiming that Daimler has changed its spots. Fine. But the proof will be in the pudding.