[blackwasp]

Lewis Hamilton of Britain became the second-most successful Formula One driver in history after clinching his sixth world championship with a second-place finish at the US Grand Prix late on Sunday (early Monday in India). The great Michael Schumacher leads the list with 7 world championships, but Hamilton has overtaken Argentina Juan Manuel Fangio, who won five titles in the 1950s. Aged 34 and still in the most dominant team of the times — Mercedes had confirmed its 6th straight constructor’s title last month — Hamilton will fancy his chances of equalling Schumacher next season.

• Going into the US Grand Prix on Sunday, Hamilton had the luxury of confirming his world championship with even an eighth-place finish. The only man who could have dethroned him, teammate Valtteri Bottas, did the best he could by winning the Grand Prix at the Circuit of the Americas. But Hamilton came second to win the ultimate prize.

• Hamilton’s Schumacher-like exploits isn’t limited to the number of world championships. The Briton has won a total of 83 F1 races in his career; Schumacher has 91 wins. But Hamilton has a better win-rate than the German — 33.4% against 29.6%. Hamilton holds the record for the most pole positions at 87 (35.08%); Schumacher had 68 pole positions (22.15%) in his career. Beyond first place, Hamilton has been on the podium 150 times (60.48%) , and Schumacher 155 (50.49%).

• Hamilton also has a better retirement rate, having retired just 26 times in his career as against 68 by Schumacher. Retirements include collisions, accidents and spin-offs.

• And what of the total points accrued? Hamilton’s better record of finishing more often in the top 10 means he has accrued 3399 points so far; Schumacher accrued 1566 points in his career. Even Sebastian Vettel has accrued more points (2975). In fact, Schumacher is only 6th in the table of most points, after Hamilton, Vettel, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikonnen and Nico Rosberg.

Text and Picture Credits : TOI Newsletter

[ram87pune]

If Hamilton is Virat Kohli then Schumacher is Sachin Tendulkar. End of discussion.

Of course these debates don't end so easily. Every era has their own legends be it any sport. And as far as F1 is concerned, I think the racing used to be more difficult compared to what it is today. The technology had not invaded the sport so much and races were won more by the drivers skills rather than some computer doing the work in the background. If you take the analogy with cricket then I would say during the Sachin era there were no DRS or team analysts sitting with their laptops and scrutinizing each and every frame of how a bowl is bowled or how fields are set etc. So it was a bit more difficult to score runs as compared to now. Just how many times Sachin has got out in the 90's just because of an umpiring error? Imagine what DRS would have done at that stage?

Of course this does not take anything away from the class of these racers/players. But I am of the opinion that one should not compare two sports persons of different era's purely based on the numbers. That would be a gross injustice to both of them and the sport.

[ValarMorghulis]

And what of the total points accrued? Hamilton’s better record of finishing more often in the top 10 means he has accrued 3399 points so far; Schumacher accrued 1566 points in his career. Even Sebastian Vettel has accrued more points (2975). In fact, Schumacher is only 6th in the table of most points, after Hamilton, Vettel, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikonnen and Nico Rosberg.

This makes no sense, since Schumi drove when the winner received 10 points as 1st. Hamilton receives 25!
Stats are misleading.

[aim120]

The two DNF in 2016 cost hamilton his championship. When you DNF with the new points you can loose 25 points vs 10 in Schumacher era.
Also the difference between 1st place and 2nd place is 7 points vs 2 points in Schumacher era, so it really hurts now if you finish second.

Fastest laps cannot be compared, since in Schumacher era there was refueling.

Both are legends but Hamilton is dealing with more competition with more drivers coming out from Drivers development program like Verstappen. He had rivals like (Vettel, Button, Alonso, Kimi) when he joined Mercedes.

Not sure how hard the car was to drive back then, since when Schumacher was driving there was atleast one or more of these Traction control, Automatic gearbox, Launch control in four of his world championship winning years. ( In 94, 95, 2000 when Schumacher won is 1st, 2nd and 3rd championship they where all banned. But from 2001 to 2003 traction control, launch control, automatic gearbox was legal. In 2004 only traction control was legal )

All of the above was banned from 2008 when Hamilton first won is championship.

Hamilton had to endure the racial abuse when he was a child, through his karting days and even in F1 from spanish F1 fans.

So has he wins more championships, Hamilton will probably be the greatest.

[GTO]

We can debate this all day long, but even as a diehard Michael Schumacher fan, I'll say that Hamilton is one of the greatest. Wouldn't put him on par with Schumacher, yet will say that he's a very close no.2. Closer than any other driver.

Michael won races in inferior cars. He joined a horrible team and was part of a group that rebuilt it from scratch. He dominated so hard that the rules of the game had to be changed! Michael was never beaten by his team-mate in his peak (Rosberg did later). I don't think Lewis did any of this.

On the other hand, Lewis always fought his team-mates on level ground (no no.1 or no.2 business). Lewis has also been more likeable, and controversy-free. Even his critics will admit that Hamilton never cheated the way that Schumacher did (starting with all those intentional crashes).

I feel I'm lucky to have seen both these greats, live on television .

[DarthVeda]

Originally Posted by GTO

Michael won races in inferior cars. He joined a horrible team and was part of a group that rebuilt it from scratch. He dominated so hard that the rules of the game had to be changed! Michael was never beaten by his team-mate. I don't think Lewis did any of this.

the 94 Benetton Ford, where the engine would love to let go, and going against the reliable williams renault. If not for the black flag in GB race, Hill wouldn't have caught him anyway. When they got the renault in 95, he was unstoppable. The way he came back from so far down in the field to win in Nurburgring and Spa, speaks to the talent he had.
Let's not for 96 season with a horrible car of ferrari, the way he won in spain in the rain with few gears missing, and the time in french GP, when the engine let go in formation lap itself. He improved the car as the season progressed, and should have won in 99 if not for the injury in GB race and then it was all domination till FIA changed rules for no tyre change during the race, which just handed the championship to Renault (Alonso) which managed the tyres better. I remember in that season, whenever there was a slight drizzle and they were allowed to changed tyres as they please, Michael won easily.

Lewis victories to me seem hollow, Nico rosberg left after he won, because he knew it won't be a level playing field come next year.. there is just no competition to Mercedes in the past few season. Redbull have been on decline, and Ferrari find new ways to screw up the races with their "brilliant" strategy and dumb decisions. I got nothing against Hamilton, he's a brilliant driver but it just feels like victory has been handed to him on a platter.

[RYP]

Hamilton turned vegan last year and attributed most of the success to the diet change. It's quite shocking and tempting that Virat Kohli, William sisters', Hamilton, Djokovic and many more elite athletes are vouching for the same at the same time. Full article here -
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/s...lton-diet.html

[mayankk]

Great thread. As soon as I get to a laptop, I'm going to be here proper.
With Michael's current situation, most of us who absolutely despised him have mellowed down to a large extent. That has allowed me to see what he did for the sport.

Originally Posted by GTO

Michael was never beaten by his team-mate. I don't think Lewis did any of this.

.

There's not much to say here without getting into a whole world of trouble.

[nikhilthegunner]

Originally Posted by GTO

Michael... joined a horrible team and was part of a group that rebuilt it from scratch. He dominated so hard that the rules of the game had to be changed! Michael was never beaten by his team-mate. I don't think Lewis did any of this.

Hamilton joined Mercedes in 2013. Until 2014, it was not like Benz was the best team in the business. Don't you think lewis would have had some role to play in the revitalisation of the team that led to their 6 year domination? Plus, FIA is now making changes in 2021, could this not be attributed partly to Mercedes domination?

I also understand that Lewis himself is very data driven. He may have had something to do in that department too.

[Chalu]

Unfortunately being a fan of either driver clouds our opinion.

Coming to GTO's comment on Michael never beaten by his teammate - Michael never had a competitive teammate and was always numero Uno in the team. Imagine if Lewis didnt have teammates like Alonso, Button, Nico he would have more than 100 Wins & poles.

Both of them are great drivers who are the best in F1 along with Fangio, CLark, Senna, Lauda etc...
We cant compare them from different eras as they didnt compete against eachother.

It would be a futile debate between Fans (my dad is better than yours or my car is better than yours :-))

Peace out and enjoy you are watching one of the great Formula 1 drivers this decade.

Cheers

[myavu]

Originally Posted by GTO

I feel I'm lucky to have seen both these greats, live on television .

You put down exactly what's in my mind.

Michael is a true legend for me. I started watching F1 through him since 1998. But Lewis is a different racer altogether. His ability to fine tune his car/strategy along with his engineers (even when the whole package is little inferior) is commendable (there is no unlimited testing like earlier these days). His ability to attack the leading cars towards the end if there is any chance for a victory is also unique when compared to others. His ability to save the machinery (tyres, brakes, fuel etc.) to last the distance and still reproduce a quali lap is truly masterpiece. He is a kind of driver who will be very upset if not finished first. After 6 championships and 83 wins he is still in that mentality and that makes him a great champion ever.

[am1m]

I guess there have been enough of these comparos across all sports.

Tendulkar vs Anyothergreatbatsman, Federer vs Anyothergreattennisplayer, Pele vs Maradona vs Messi, etc etc.

And they all come to the same conclusion, you can't really compare across eras.

F1 is going to be particularly difficult because the cars are just so different every year, forget across eras! Not to mention the format of each championship.


And anyway, Senna was the best!

[abhishek46]

It is pointless to compare Hamilton with Schumacher or Senna or even Prost.

As somebody rightly pointed out, it's like Kohli vs tendulkar.

The brutes which Prost/Senna drove around, were hard to keep pointed straight, let alone corner, thanks to extreme power.

How Hamilton would perform in the turbo-era and after it, where there was no proper safety, cars with 1200/1300Hp, is simply out of the debate scope.

However, I do admit it, for me, Senna was the best. (And this is coming from racing legends, including Schumacher, Hakkinen and countless others)

Lewis is a legend, no doubt. But, Greatest of All Time, not sure.

[swissknife]

Originally Posted by am1m

And anyway, Senna was the best!

That's the reason I didn't get into this discussion. The best was taken away too soon.

[McLaren Rulez]

Schumacher's stats were also significantly messed up by his unsuccessful Mercedes comeback. His win rate up to 2006 easily beats Hamilton's.

That said, I think the quality of drivers now is far better than at any point before in history - which makes winning that much harder! The midfield today and even the backmarker teams have excellent drivers unlike the 90s and the early 2000s.