[Starfire]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

The latter phrase is used by those living in denial of existence of racism itself. Better to stay quiet than saying that.

I'm sorry but how does the statement "All lives matter" show that I'm in denial of racism?

To give you an analogy of what you just said:

You: Red is a colour in the Rainbow.
Me: All colours coming under VIBGYOR are colours of the Rainbow.
You: You are living in denial that Red is a colour in the Rainbow. Better stay quiet.
Me: What???

In conclusion, racisim happens against browns and yellows (Chinese, etc) as well, a large number of whites get killed by black as well and Vice versa. Why should you say that ONLY Black lives matter? There have been instances of corrupt black cops killing innocent whites in the states as well. So why shouldn't you say "All Lives Matter". I'm simply focusing on equality and being fair to all. In fact, by replacing the word "All" with the word "Black" clearly shows that you are adding racism to a universal statement which gives favour to each and every human life.

Anyway, You're right with one thing, that this is probably out of scope of this thread. Hence, let's end it here.

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by Starfire

I'm sorry but how does the statement "All lives matter" show that I'm in denial of racism?

To give you an analogy of what you just said:

You: Red is a colour in the Rainbow.
Me:All colours coming under VIBGYOR are colours of the Rainbow.
You: You are living in denial that Red is a colour in the Rainbow. Better stay quiet.
Me: What???

Not exactly same.
You see, the first statement didn't come out of the blue. It's not a random statement made just for the sake of it, but it had be said, to highlight that Red is also a color in rainbow, because somewhere in the recent history, instead of recognizing all colors in rainbow with equal importance and considering them equal, Red was considered inferior to other colors (or probably not a color at all!). Now, when someone makes the second statement in response to the first, one is basically downplaying the mistreatment of color Red. That's the point.

In conclusion, racisim happens against browns and yellows (Chinese, etc) as well, a large number of whites get killed by black as well and Vice versa. Why should you say that ONLY Black lives matter? There have been instances of corrupt black cops killing innocent whites in the states as well. So why shouldn't you say "All Lives Matter". I'm simply focusing on equality and being fair to all. In fact, by replacing the word "All" with the word "Black" clearly shows that you are adding racism to a universal statement which gives favour to each and every human life.

Anyway, You're right with one thing, that this is probably out of scope of this thread. Hence, let's end it here.

Context! Context determines the meaning. Nobody said 'ONLY' black lives matter, that's your own interpretation in this case! One is free to say 'all lives matter' on their own, but when that becomes a response to statement 'black lives matter', it's used to underplay the importance of highlighting racism against a particular group. That's the point.

Here's a comic that explains it even better:
All houses matter
https://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2016/...-extended-cut/

Anyway, not going to discuss this further here.

[Starfire]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

Context! Context determines the meaning. Nobody said 'ONLY' black lives matter, that's your own interpretation in this case! One is free to say 'all lives matter' on their own, but when that becomes a response to statement 'black lives matter', it's used to underplay the importance of highlighting racism against a particular group. That's the point.

So you mean to say at this point in time the only racism going on the the states is against blacks? Really? It's just that this one has been highlighted. Like the comic you mentioned, but here now there are multiple houses on fire, it's just that they are hidden from view, while this one house is seen. Doesn't mean you don't water off the flame on the other houses.

The same racisim was done against Chinese Americans due to COVID breaking loose. Where were all these protests then? Where were the T-shirts, where were the flags, why wasn't there any kneeling in F1? I'll tell you where they were, they were no where only cause the masses in USA were infuriated blaming all the Chinese Americans for the pandemic which included countless innocent people who had never even seen China their whole life. That time all chinese were looked upon as black sheep, come on brother!

Besides, context is what I use my phrase in, not what you understand of it which you clearly misunderstood. My job involves serving one and all equally. The last thing I would do is this. But surely I'll stand for all equally. I know this "Black lives and All lives" has been made a big fiasco off with certain extremist groups twisting to show that "All lives matter" is racist, but in all reality, majority of the people chanting all lives matter actually care about all Blacks, Whites, Brown, etc as one alike and not in the way it's been twisted by social media and the extremists.

[libranof1987]

England and West Indies' cricketers took the knee at the first Test yesterday.

the players and officials took their positions as if to start the Test, while other squad members and backroom staff lined the boundary.

They all then dropped to a knee, with many of the West Indies players raising a right hand covered by a black glove.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/53311841

[philipmathen]

Agree that it’s a personal choice, but many news reports seem to suggest that taking a knee as a symbol of protest would not go down well in their respective countries or cultures. Tried to find what that meant, could not find anything further. Anyone have an idea what exactly was being suggested in terms of cultural differences?

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by Starfire

So you mean to say at this point in time the only racism going on the the states is against blacks? Really? It's just that this one has been highlighted. Like the comic you mentioned, but here now there are multiple houses on fire, it's just that they are hidden from view, while this one house is seen. Doesn't mean you don't water off the flame on the other houses.

How did you derive that meaning (bold text above) out of this statement - black lives matter? Who added 'only' into the statement which changes the meaning completely? Not me or anyone who made the original statement.

The same racisim was done against Chinese Americans due to COVID breaking loose. Where were all these protests then? Where were the T-shirts, where were the flags, why wasn't there any kneeling in F1? I'll tell you where they were, they were no where only cause the masses in USA were infuriated blaming all the Chinese Americans for the pandemic which included countless innocent people who had never even seen China their whole life. That time all chinese were looked upon as black sheep, come on brother!

This is turning into whataboutery now, which i am not interested in getting into.

Besides, context is what I use my phrase in, not what you understand of it which you clearly misunderstood. My job involves serving one and all equally. The last thing I would do is this. But surely I'll stand for all equally. I know this "Black lives and All lives" has been made a big fiasco off with certain extremist groups twisting to show that "All lives matter" is racist, but in all reality, majority of the people chanting all lives matter actually care about all Blacks, Whites, Brown, etc as one alike and not in the way it's been twisted by social media and the extremists.

I am not questioning your intention. It's obvious that all lives do matter, but there was never a threat to all lives in totality, right? So saying 'all lives matter' in response to the original statement automatically means downplaying racism happening on the blacks. I can't speak for majority, but if I were a black person, it's natural for me to get offended by the retort 'all lives matter'. Here's what Michael Holding had to say about that:
https://indianexpress.com/article/sp...vs-wi-6496227/

If one genuinely feels for a larger cause raising beyond just Afro-Americans, then like the F1 drivers did, a simple 'End Racism' is good enough. That statement is simple enough to be understood by everyone while remaining universally valid, and leaves no scope for any mis-interpretation. It will even remain true in hypothetical scenario where the whites (or any other ethnic group in future) are on receiving end of racism.

[AZT]

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

I am not questioning your intention. It's obvious that all lives do matter, but there was never a threat to all lives in totality, right? So saying 'all lives matter' in response to the original statement automatically means downplaying racism happening on the blacks. I can't speak for majority, but if I were a black person, it's natural for me to get offended by the retort 'all lives matter'. Here's what Michael Holding had to say about that:
https://indianexpress.com/article/sp...vs-wi-6496227/

If one genuinely feels for a larger cause raising beyond just Afro-Americans, then like the F1 drivers did, a simple 'End Racism' is good enough. That statement is simple enough to be understood by everyone while remaining universally valid, and leaves no scope for any mis-interpretation. It will even remain true in hypothetical scenario where the whites (or any other ethnic group in future) are on receiving end of racism.

Fantastic statement. It’s the implied too that people miss out, the actual statement is Black Lives Matter Too. I’ll post screenshots of a comment which explains this perfectly.

[ajitmoses]

The bigger problem that F1 is facing is elitism. Even the kid with the most talent needs money to get into this sport. A lot of F2 drivers can probably take the seat of Stroll today in a fair world. We are still better than the last decade when Pay drivers were common but I think at the junior levels, it is still a very very expensive sport.

I think Hamilton got the best platform anyone could get ever. He has done well for himself and he has every right as an individual to stand up for his beliefs. I have to agree with everyone who has said that F1 should focus on Technology and Racing.

[motorworks]

I think this issue of few drivers not making this gesture is being blown out of proportion. They all made a statement by wearing those Tshirts anyway. And whats a gesture like this going to result in? I think this carried some weight in the US, anywhere outside it just seems forced. People like Lewis should fight for equality, inclusion of all races in F1. He has the money and finances, rather than a gesture, do something at the ground level. Change perceptions, groom some folks from different races even for small roles in F1. Forget about another black driver, you dont see any black folks in any role in racing. Not even team personnel or engineers. So work on that, rather than just making a gesture which doesnt go beyond newspaper headlines.

[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by AZT

Fantastic statement. It’s the implied too that people miss out, the actual statement is Black Lives Matter Too. I’ll post screenshots of a comment which explains this perfectly.

Fairness is a myth in the US

• There was once a Black Wall Street (Tulsa massacre - June 1, 1921) that was burnt down by whites with weapons provided by the govt. and justice was never served. Worse, kids don't even study that in the history books. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre
  
• Homestead act gave away 160 million acres of federal land to whites for free, blacks got nothing. Generations have been denied of an opportunity to accumulate wealth, now for them to point at Obama, Oprah, or Shaq and say its all even - points to ignorance, or hypocrisy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_Acts

The US has never been about fairness, it is a winner takes all culture. $500M contract to a winning quarterback, while 1 in 6 NFL players go bankrupt.

[naveenroy]

I would love to multi-quote a lot of posts here and reply to each and every one of them, triggering everyone in turn. But what would that achieve? - nothing. I've realized that the way to deal with topics like this is to try and see where the opposite person is coming from and to try and help them see what they're really trying to say and how it actually sounds. Hey, maybe some of us might change our point of view a tad to the center.

BLM. A loaded term. For many. Comedian Michael Che said this about it - "We just fight about everything. We can't even agree on black lives matter. That's a controversial statement. Not matters more than you. Just matters. Matters! Just matters. What the ***** is less than matters? Black lives exist? Can we say that? Is that controversial?" Seriously though - even the word matters is considered offensive? They didn't even say superior. They didn't even say equal. Just matters.

Someone said all lives matter. And that we're pandering to the Americans when we say BLM. I personally don't think so. Like above, the BLM movement started in America yes but the people fighting against racism aren't saying that only black people matter. But you need to be able to start with black and other minority rights to even reach the level of all lives matter. No? Racism is in every country. Dalit lives matter too.

And taking a knee - MLK and many other civil rights leaders did it. Peaceful protest. There is historical significance to it - no wonder why Colin Kaepernick took and knee - peacefully. But even that they found controversial. Did anyone remember how much hate he received for that - even from the POTUS.

I don't think the drivers who didn't take a knee did anything wrong. Personal choice and they clarified their stand in separate ways. But, question - so much easier to have taken a knee right?

I am not a fan of tokenism either. But can you imagine how many feathers have been riled by just this tokenism? How many people hate the minorities for not "staying in their place and being model-minorities"? Hey, maybe we are onto something. It has to start somewhere right?

I hear from so many people that they are tired of listening to BLM being chanted and the revelations of "wokeness" and cancel culture and that they miss the "good old days" of "colorblindness", that black people are playing the race card when all they have to do is "pull themselves up by their bootstraps, work hard and be successful in life". Just imagine then, how hard it is for people who actually live through racism every SINGLE day of their lives. Who see how systemic and institutional racism has taken away SO much and also continues to keep them away from being able to achieve what they are asked to achieve. What they are expected to achieve. That they work so hard (which is considered a requirement to get ahead in life) but they never get anywhere. That they work 3 jobs and are still looked down upon and told that "they don't work hard enough".

Originally Posted by GutsyGibbon

Fairness is a myth in the US[*]There was once a Black Wall Street (Tulsa massacre - June 1, 1921) that was burnt down by whites with weapons provided by the govt. and justice was never served. Worse, kids don't even study that in the history books.
[*]Homestead act gave away 160 million acres of federal land to whites for free, blacks got nothing.

Also the GI bill that granted so much of loans and lands to veterans who returned from the wars and very little was given to black veterans who fought side by side. Add to that the continued discrimination in housing, education, healthcare for minorities.

[akushalmechanic]

If you follow because you are a 'sheep' or it makes you look good on social media, that is one thing... if you choose not to for your own reasons and society starts to try and correct your view or have you explain to the world. That is something much darker.

F1 lets stick to racing!

[maven]

Random points:
- isn't there a suspicious timing issue on the entire BLM movement. just a few months before the US is getting into an election?
- i don't recall the past, as have not really followed US news, but was there as much hue and cry like BLM when Obama was the president or was it that there was little proof of racism then?
- coming to F1, is every issue to be dragged into every sphere of life? The drivers who did not kneel had every right not to do so.

[vredesbyrd]

Originally Posted by akushalmechanic

If you follow because you are a 'sheep' or it makes you look good on social media, that is one thing... if you choose not to for your own reasons and society starts to try and correct your view or have you explain to the world. That is something much darker.

F1 lets stick to racing!

Not conforming to the society and political correctness makes me subject to blind hate and mass reporting. I am the undisputed king of facebook jail(ban-time). By how spiteful people of my age-group are to freedom of speech (oh, the iron-clad irony), might as well put a WLM/ALM tag somewhere and get murdered by some person with a "liberal" mindset.

[sbkumar]

IMO, I don't think people (who support BLM) would complain if ALM/WLM became a movement on it's own for it's own reasons. But when it is brought up as a response to BLM, then it is seen as by someone who is not willing to acknowledge the problem at hand. There could be two reasons - either they do not believe the stats that point to the fact how hard it is for a black to succeed in US ( and how systemically they were deprived of opportunities) or they believe those stats but think it's not that something that they should be bothered about or probably something they would want to continue. If it's because they are not aware of the history, it's probably understandable but if they know about it but still do not want to acknowledge it, it's hard for me personally to understand them.