[MaserQ]

Drivers shouldn't have to kneel if they have their own way of dealing with racism. But looking at the wider issue, F1 was largely a European sport up until 25 years ago. You could argue that it is a global sport in 2020, but maybe Hamilton feels has not necessarily reflected in the diversity within F1, especially in its personnel.

Also keep in mind that Hamilton used to race karts as a kid in the 'pre-globalised' era of F1. He has spoken about the struggles he and his dad had to go through as the only people of colour in that context. Hamilton could his fame (and his millions) to setup a driver 'scholarship' of sorts to bring more people of colour into the sport.

In this day and age racism might not be explicit with respect to Formula 1, but it doesn't help when you have past champions wade in with their unnecessary social commentary.

https://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/29...itant-comments

[Amsdoc]

And the saga continues....

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/53557283

[v1p3r]

Interesting to see the 'let's stick to racing' comments.

Until the early 1990s, South Africa institutionalised racism using their system of apartheid. As a result, India refused to play cricket with SA. In fact, all Indian passports specifically carried a warning that the document was not valid for travel to SA - a fact that I am very proud of, because it showed that we, as a poor country, still showed class and courage. When racism was dismantled, India was the first country to host SA in a series, again classy - and this was before the BCCI started doing everything for a few rupees more. An 18 year old boy called Sachin stood up to the merciless onslaught of Allan Donald, nearly winning an ODI singlehandedly, but I digress.

At no point in those intervening years was there a 'let's stick to cricket' chorus. I guess our previous generations were better people.

There is no equivalent in history for how people of African descent have been treated by whites. The closest is probably the British treatment of India. Racism by whites against blacks is a deep-rooted, centuries-old phenomenon that has seen unspeakable horrors. Most of you may not be aware of the extent of this, so I am adding this photo. This was brutal, but by no means an outlier.



All of Europe and North (and South) America's prosperity has been built on the backs of African slaves and the rape of lands like India and China. While it may be justified as conquest or the survival of the fittest, it behoves us to remember the source of this wealth and global power, lest we write off any attempt to reverse it as 'activism'.

You will notice that Lewis Hamilton has actually said that no one should be forced to take a knee. The articles around this are baiting and misleading, to paint LH as a villain. The fact of the matter is that most F1 drivers come from countries with long histories of racism, in some cases fascism - Germany, Belgium, UK, Russia, Italy, hell all of Europe. Outside of N.America and possibly UK, there is little understanding of the struggle that black people have faced from birth. I am far from an LH fan - I dislike his attitude and demeanour - but I feel for him and his cause.

I think the world would be much richer for it, were we all aware of our privileges, be they racial, caste, or financial.

[Amsdoc]

I don't think anybody is denying the history and even the present treatment of minorities . SO there is no need for gory historical pictures (which is extremely distressing to the point that I feel it should come with viewer discretion warning) or the holier-than-thou attitude.

As far as we Indians go, we are as bad as if not worse than the whites with regards to discrimination against religion, caste, colour you name it. And our previous generations were worse. Extremely hypocritical to take a stand for BLM or Apartheid and conveniently ignore what is happening on your own door step.

As far as the F1 story is concerned, I think it is all very poorly managed. They have no clue as to what to do or not. I have no issue with it if it was a unanimous decision like they did with PL football where all players take a knee for a minute before play. Well done. Here there is no consensus, no direction and seems like a last minute hodge-podge done for the sake of doing something and LH gets dragged into it every time which is really annoying and unfair for him. I have no idea what to expect before the British GP but I hope it is a better effort and then they get back to racing.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Amsdoc

I don't think anybody is denying the history and even the present treatment of minorities . SO there is no need for gory historical pictures (which is extremely distressing to the point that I feel it should come with viewer discretion warning) or the holier-than-thou attitude.

You will find that there are some posts on this thread that say we should just 'stick to racing'. That's a pretty ostrich-like denial. Another member had to educate us on why All Lives Matter is whataboutery. I accept your point about the picture being distressing, but it might be useful to jar someone into understanding what black people have gone through for centuries. If the moderators wish to remove it, so be it. I'm not sure why you think any of this is holier-than-thou. I specifically referred to 'us' and 'we'.

Originally Posted by Amsdoc

As far as we Indians go, we are as bad as if not worse than the whites with regards to discrimination against religion, caste, colour you name it. And our previous generations were worse. Extremely hypocritical to take a stand for BLM or Apartheid and conveniently ignore what is happening on your own door step.

I agree one thousand percent. Which is why my last line says we must all be cognisant of the privileges bestowed on us by birth, such as race, caste, and money. One of those is uniquely Indian, and is responsible for much woe in our country. I hope this isn't holier-than-thou.

I don't believe F1 will make much more of an effort. The organisation and the target audience are not the same as FA, NBA, NFL. LH is an aberration in the list of drivers. I am surprised they came this far - certainly wouldn't have happened under Bernie.

[navin]

Originally Posted by noopster

When you expect people to "take the knee" in general, it cheapens the act from something that is deeply meaningful to mere tokenism, in my opinion.

Fun fact: when John Carlos and Tommie Smith raised their gloved (they had only one pair of gloves between them, which is why one of them wore it on his left hand) hands at the '68 Olympics it was also during the playing of the Star Spangled Banner. At least Kaepernick was not subject to boos and taunts like "Niggers need to go back to Africa!" [sic]

Originally Posted by Starfire

The same racisim was done against Chinese Americans due to COVID breaking loose. Where were all these protests then?

While there is some degree of racism against all non-white in the US, the blacks have been at the receiving end of decades (maybe centuries) long systemic racism in the US.

Post 9/11 some ignorant white Americans targeted Indian Sikhs who happened to wear turbans. We cannot equate that to the fact that the US Government made policies as recently as the 1940s (post WWII) to support (via discounted bank loans) projects like Levittown (Caucasian only suburbs).

When I was studying the history of "project housing" in NYC, I learned that some like Stuyvesant Town and Parkchester were also restricted for "Whites Only". In fact the first two "new" projects in NYC developments were segregated based on race with Harlem River, being "Black-Only" and Williamsburg reserved for "White-Only". Banks often charged Blacks higher interest rates than Whites having the same income/family profile. Most of the 50s projects like Bronx River, Edenwald, Castle Hill, began to decay from neglect because of "White-Flight" in the 70s. I agree that I am using NYC as a microcosm for all of the US (it may not be wholly accurate) but it is a good example of how municipalities paid less attention to the upkeep of "black dominated" neighbourhoods vs the "white-dominated" ones.

I was a brown man living in NYC. My "beat" included East Harlem and an area once known as "Hell's Kitchen". This was before Rudy G cleaned up the neighbourhood. I saw the challenging environment many black kids had just to get to school (not there weren't enough challenges in school). And these weren't even the worst parts of NYC. Neighbourhoods like "Bedford-Stuyvesant" (Bed-Stuy) were far worse.

Bed-Stuy was considered so dangerous that Billy Joel even referred to "walking through Bedford Stuy alone...only proves that you are insane" (You may be Right, Glass Houses, 1980). I drove through it once (in the early 80s), quite late at night too, and some guy hit my car with a baseball bat while I was stopped at a traffic light.

It is not to say this sort of racism does not exist in India. It does. I was denied the right to purchase a property when the Housing Society found out that I was NOT a vegetarian. I have heard of cases where minorities are also denied the right of purchase by some Housing Societies. But it is not systemic. The Indian Government does not aid or abet it overtly, like it was in the US at least till early 50s.

Originally Posted by naveenroy

Add to that the continued discrimination in housing, education, healthcare for minorities.

What is being protested in the US today, is the decades of systemic racism.

I assume most here have seen this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrffW5au8lA&t=47s

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I am very proud of, because it showed that e, as a poor country, still showed class and courage.

Outside of N.America and possibly UK, there is little understanding of the struggle that black people

India very often punches above it's "weight class" on matters of International interest. At Davos, UN, etc., Indian diplomats are well respected for their ability to take a stand and clearly articulate their reasoning (if unfettered by politicians).

From my interaction with my white American classmates (from the 80s), many of them had (at that time) little understanding or compassion for the challenges faced by blacks. Some of them have now developed some understanding but not all have.

A few of my classmates have even argue that "when things were segregated, blacks had better lives" or that "Blacks are 'happier' in black neighbourhoods because birds of a feather flock together" or "how come Chinese, Koreans and Indians who are also minorities are not poor" I don't even know what to say to them. You can't win every battle, I guess.

[RedTerrano]

In my opinion, there is a time and place for everything. Like roads are not meant for racing. One should go to a racetrack for racing.
I am surprised why some people are OK with anti racism protests happening in a racing event.

Speaking of racism, here are some instances, which nobody seems to be talking about.

Skin color:
Idi Amin kicked out the Indians out of Uganda.


For those who might not be aware, this is Idi Amin



Religion:



Caste (Hindu)

Source


Caste (non Hindu)
Catholic-Protestant couple buried in separate graveyard




Let's leave the tracks for motor racing. Lot's of other appropriate venues available for other things.

[sbkumar]

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

In my opinion, there is a time and place for everything. Like roads are not meant for racing. One should go to a racetrack for racing.
I am surprised why some people are OK with anti-racism protests happening in a racing event.

That "a time and place for everything" approach didn't bring the expected change and that's why more people think we should discuss it and support it wherever possible and make more aware of it.

[ranjitnair77]

This poster summaries what the movement is all about



This movement originated in the US and bought focus on the most vulnerable community in the US It gained widespread appeal in every country that has a minority black population because blacks and non-blacks identified it as an issue. The movement needs as much attention as it can get. The fact that all the F1 drivers supported the movement (regardless of whether they took a knee or not) must be celebrated. May it spread to every sporting occasion including the Olympics next year. This is so obvious and so necessary that it is not even worth a debate.

Originally Posted by navin

Fun fact: when John Carlos and Tommie Smith raised their gloved (they had only one pair of gloves between them, which is why one of them wore it on his left hand) hands at the '68 Olympics

There is an interesting facet to this powerful story. Peter Norman, the white Australian who won the silver medal advised them to share the gloves as they had only one pair between the two of them. He wore the OPHR badge in solidarity with the two of them on the podium. That was an extremely brave move that was fraught with consequences. He was subsequently treated very badly for his act in Australia. He was not selected for the subsequent games, not invited to the Sydney Olympics and generally had a difficult life. John and Tommie were pallbearers at his funeral in 2006. The Australian House offered a posthumus apology six years after his death.

I think we can all take inspiration from Peter Norman's example.

[Renjith Rajan]

It is easy to kneel and support the movement if one understands it.

Others would just make up reason such as I agree with the concept, but I have different ways of supporting it etc.

Decades and centuries of racism/casteism can make things look normal due to how systematic and institutionalized it is now. We dont need to go to America for it, just need to open our eyes and look around.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

I am surprised why some people are OK with anti racism protests happening in a racing event.

Bit difficult for a black person (or anyone else) to protest racism at a racist event, no? Probably get lynched or something.

Good examples BTW, and all very much talked about. The Ugandan thing is a little more nuanced though, coming from people with close experience in that affair. Only non-citizens were sent packing (though new citizenship applications were frozen), and unfortunately Indians had a history of being racist in Africa.

At the risk of breaking this forum's rules on religion - Mecca is only for Muslims in much the same way that Guruvayur is only for Hindus (unless that has changed recently). Similarly, though Protestants and Catholics differ in their beliefs, sometimes violently like in Ireland, there is no systemised discrimination leading to social or economic disadvantage that heavily favours one over the other.

Caste discrimination is abhorrent - the Mahars have been at the receiving end for centuries, and if what you posted is true, it is sad that they treat others as badly.

Originally Posted by ranjitnair77

I think we can all take inspiration from Peter Norman's example.

Luz Long is another example. This is what the Olympics should stand for. Inspiration is everywhere, if we only care to look.

We've nearly run out of time as far as the planet goes. If we don't get our act together and begin to treat everyone with respect, we're not going to make it out of this century as a species.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

I am surprised why some people are OK with anti racism protests happening in a racing event.
.

I am very surprised that, apparently, you and others are not OK with it.

Racism needs to be stamped out at every opportunity. Sports are good opportunities because it provides such a large audience. Unfortunately, racism is still a huge ugly thing, and many people hardly get it. Or even refuse to acknowledge it exists at all.

Getting rid of racism is much, much more important than Sports as such in my opinion.

Individuals showing what they stand for, for a mere couple of seconds, prior some sports event, why would you be against that?

You will watch 2 hours of complete useless, but entertaining F1, but are offended by individuals kneeling for an excellent and relevant worthy cause for a few seconds?

Jeroen

[RedTerrano]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

but are offended by individuals kneeling for an excellent and relevant worthy cause for a few seconds?

I am offended?
Offended?
Seriously? Wow!
Perhaps you didn't read/comprehend the part where I said

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

In my opinion, there is a time and place for everything.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Indians had a history of being racist in Africa.

So basically you support racism if done by a certain race, but not by others?
And BTW Idid Amin was not the only African ruler who was racist. Robert Mugabe followed in his footsteps .

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Similarly, though Protestants and Catholics differ in their beliefs, sometimes violently like in Ireland, there is no systemised discrimination leading to social or economic disadvantage that heavily favours one over the other.

Systemised discrimination?
You might want to read up on the protestant/catholic strife in UK, especially Mary I, which went on for centuries, where people were killed because of their beliefs.

Anyway, all this is besides the point.
I stand by my original point. Leave racetracks for racing. Lots of other avenues for protests.

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[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

Perhaps you didn't read/comprehend the part where I said

You said:

I am surprised why some people are OK with anti racism protests happening in a racing event. In my opinion, there is a time and place for everything. Let's leave the tracks for motor racing. Lot's of other appropriate venues available for other things.

I read that as you believe a race event is not the place where one should have anti-racism protest? Did I read that incorrectly?

Maybe you are of the opinion racism only occurs at certain venues?

Personally I think it is highly appropriate to bring something as awful as racism in front of the public, any public, any venue, any event. Because racism needs to stamped out. No mistake. It is very evident it is present in F1. It needs to be addressed where it is present, which is almost anywhere.

To avoid any doubt, I am OK to have anti-racism protest everywhere, anywhere! About time too

Watching sports on TV is a leisure activity, done from our cosy home, stretched out in a comfy chair. Something to amuse and indulge oneself in if one has such interest.

Racism is never a choice for those who suffer from it. It is a harsh reality that affect every part and every second of your life.

Jeroen

[RedTerrano]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I read that as you believe a race event is not the place where one should have anti-racism protest? Did I read that incorrectly?

You did not.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Maybe you are of the opinion racism only occurs at certain venues?

I am not. I think you are conflating two issues. Racism (never OK) and venues of anti racism protest.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Personally I think it is highly appropriate to bring something as awful as racism in front of the public, any public, any venue, any event. Because racism needs to stamped out.

So next time there is say a royal wedding (watched by millions on TV) it is OK to have people turn up during the ceremony, wearing anti racism T-shirt and take the knee in church? You don't believe in sanctity of the moment in the presence of God?

Originally Posted by Jeroen

To avoid any doubt, I am OK to have anti-racism protest everywhere, anywhere! About time too

Racism in any form is never OK. We agree on this one.
Venues for protest is where we differ.