[rakesh_r]

Had a Bullet 500. Sold the bike since I wasn't using it much. Bought an Aprillia SR-150, used it for one year 2000km and sold it off, reason- Couldn't ride it with confidence even when it had a nice punchy motor with disc brakes. With wife as pillion it was getting even more difficult to balance in the same situation where I used to ride the Bullet comfortably. My wife used to always say that I rode the scooter like a newbie (been riding bikes since 18 years). Post one year, happily sold the scoot and bought a Himalayan and trust me, I never felt more happy and swore never to buy a scoot.

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Bhai you missed my point. I had driven the Activa already 35-40km before my accident. I would wager that was familiarization enough. There was nothing on the road except very mild dew.

...

I'm not blindly optimistic that I will just shrug it off as bad luck. I want to control it better.

35-40 is familiarisation enough, but that doesn’t take away from the bad handling and stability of these scooters.
I recall on my last trip to Havelock, I had to rent a new Activa (availability) and on my way back from Radhanagar it started drizzling leading to very slippery roads especially between the Radhanagar beach and the Elephant beach trek start point. Despite driving snail slow the scooter was slipping and sliding like crazy and had almost no brakes to speak of. That was the last time, I decided, I’ll ride a scooter.
You can’t control everything, but you can choose a good motorcycle if available or hope for the best.

[Manoj2268]

I make it a point of adjusting the brakes to my liking everyone I hire an Activa. Or I go for the aviator which is slightly more stable.

[hgps]

I believe it does make us a bit careless having used to the way our powerful bike performs.
From my experience, I learned to ride on a Yamaha FZ-S (low end torque was fun, good brakes and grip. Then moved to CBR250R ABS which further increased performance in terms of acceleration, braking etc.

When i first rode a gearless scooter, some funny incidents happened to me, which aren't relevant to the topic. But yeah. It was difficult to adjust initially. There were times when i had to grab brakes hard while stopping for a red light because i was so used to the braking power of my bikes which had disc brakes while these scooters had non existent front brakes and poor rear brakes. Same goes for acceleration performance. There were times when i needed instant acceleration to get out of a tricky situation but it wasnt there on the scooter.

[//M]

I ride a 2018 Tiger 800 (completed 12000 kms so far) on weekends and a 2012 Activa (not sure about the odo reading as the speedometer console went kaput 3 yrs back and I never bothered to fix it) for small errands. I recently sold off my 2012 Classic 500 (56000 kms done). No matter how hard I try, the Activa has never been confidence inspiring. The tyres are puny, grip levels are non-existent despite having new tyres, brakes are bad and the suspension feels stiff. Despite being much much lighter than my Tiger, I find it extremely difficult to balance the Activa in tricky situations. Infact, I will go the extent of confessing that I am more scared to ride my Activa than my Tiger.

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

........
My thesis is that experienced motorcyclists who are used to riding a competent higher end motorcycle are instinctively used to pushing their vehicles harder than an Activa can take it. What can we do about it?

Of course, I can blame the Activa for being much worse than my CBR250 - small wheels, low gyroscopic precession, terrible tires, lousy geometry and suspension, limited ability to shift weight (thanks GR!). But that's not the solution. I seek to find a way to moderate my riding style to avoid such washouts.....

I understand your situation and thought process but would disagree with you here. I have been in the same boat as you multiple times through out my life and hence I believe I can comment here.

1) I learned my riding on HH Splendor/Passion - one of the most unstable bikes around and a handling disaster on highways. I strictly limited my usage of this vehicle within City, never took it on a highway and limited my speeds to under 60. Why? Because I understood the limitations of the bike, the bad breaking that it had and also the skinny tires of the same.

2) I took the R15 and my CBR250 on the highways and can easily do 120+ kmph at times on those. The R15 was a vibration magnet post 100 kmph but I could still do 500 Km a day runs on it. CBR250 - you have used it and know what a beauty it is. I could easily do 200Km non stop and manage 600Km+ in a day on it on a smooth tarmac. High speed bursts as well as curves.

3) I have an Activa that I use for both - city and highway runs. I have done 300+ Kms in a single day on it (Mumbai-Nasik return) and I haven't fell or had any disaster on it. I regularly use the Activa for my local needs in the city and have clocked over 27K Kms on it so far. The only time that I have slipped on my Activa is when I was ignorant of the water on the road and I took a sharp turn.

So my understanding and belief is simple - it is I who has to understand the capabilities of the vehicle under my control and ride accordingly. In my highway runs on Activa, I never go beyond 60Kmps when having a pillion and never cross 80Kmph when alone. This too only when I have a free highway as otherwise I limit my speed to a lot lower levels. I know the limits of the braking power that the vehicle has and use it accordingly. I know how much fast I can do without risking a fall or damage from a pothole or breaker. I reduce the speed on Activa a lot more when I see a breaker as compared to what I would do on the CBR or the R15. Splendor - I hated that bike for many reasons and hence didn't rely on it much.

The same argument holds with everything - Sedan V/S SUV, Fast car V/S a basic car such as Alto or Santro, high powered bike (such as Dominar, CBR, etc.) V/S a scooter. It is us who have to understand the limits of the vehicle and also the condition of the roads.

Extensive experience on a high powered bike will not and should not make us overoptimistic on a scooter.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

I'm not blindly optimistic that I will just shrug it off as bad luck. I want to control it better.

Obviously you'll be in a better position to judge, but beyond a point I don't think one really can control these stray incidents. You ride a lot, you'll fall once in a while. I'm not just saying that, I understand the need to analyze after a bike spill too. I keep a record of my spills, the last one was in March this year and before that in March 2015. And I too tend to analyze immediately after as a means to rationalize or sub-consciously make up for it. I also understand how it must feel especially when there was a family member riding pillion. It's happened to me too.

Still, I think this is good advice:

Originally Posted by aargee

Practically speaking, just don't think too much analyzing things too much; it could be one of an incident unless you keep falling over & over again.

[paragsachania]

When I had a Kinetic Honda from 1997 till 2007, I rode all days to my college for 4 years covering at least 57 Kms a day between the 2 towns - Confidently, without a fall.

In between, I also used to borrow my Dad's Bajaj Chetak and take it to college when the Kinetic Honda (KH) was taken by dad.

I even rode to Bangalore on that KH once during my Engineering Project days and then when I shifted base to earn my bread and butter from Belur (220 kms).

I bought myself a Honda Unicorn in 2005 and rode it to work every day and started realizing how a bigger and more powerful bike equipped with Disc brakes and better suspension was so much better to ride compared to KH. Of course, by 2008, I had nearly stopped riding to work and was only taking my car out.

If 'Getting used to' is one thing, forgetting about it due to a long gap and again trying to experience the same is what takes you by surprise and this has happened with me so many times!!

After riding the 2 wheelers to so many places during my good old days, I feel I will just suffer a fall even if I changed my lanes swiftly or braked hard although I would super confidently control the KH or the Unicorn during my regular days of riding.

Now let me graduate the same example to cars - I covered the length and breadth of our country in a puny hatch - The WagonR. My usual driving speeds was always between 90-110 KMPH and occasional 120 KMPH as well on the highways. At no point, I could really feel the speeds were unsafe because it was me who had driven it for over 2L kms and I knew the shortcoming and how and where to control its behavior.

Come 2013, I bought the Ertiga and the highway runs of the WagonR nearly stopped. In between I have taken the WagonR to work or even to meet couple of BHPians and realised how crossing 80 KMPH also felt 'Unsafe' on the same car that I so confidently drove on the highways at much higher speeds. So now I can relate this to all those BHPians who asked a question on how does the boxy WagonR respond to cross-winds and curves .

Ride the Activa for a month or two and you will begin to feel comfortable and that is when you would know why some 'experts' perform impeccable stunts even on that and still maintain their balance!!

[abhijeet080808]

I had once seen a small accident right before my eyes on an Activa.

The terrain was a broken city road with big potholes in between. The potholes were big in size but were fairly level depth wise. On a normal day, one would see that the road was broken but there would not be much of a jerk transmitted. On this particular day it had rained overnight and the potholes were sticky from mud.

So, I was on my Duke 390 and there was an Activa riding ahead. The speed was less than 10 kmph. Once the rear wheel of the Activa hit the pothole, it just spun out of control, lowsided and dumped the rider on the street. I was shocked - the scooter was at barely walking pace, the rider had not touched the brakes but the scooter still spun out. It was almost as if the rider had intentionally revved the engine right over the pothole. But that was not true either - I had kept my eyes on the rider.

Turns out, CVT equipped scooter engines do this. They pass more torque to the rear wheel once they sense the wheel slipping and thus magnify the problem. I do not know the technical reason for this, but this does occur. I bet it was a similar case with the OP as well.

[adrian]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

My thesis is that experienced motorcyclists who are used to riding a competent higher end motorcycle are instinctively used to pushing their vehicles harder than an Activa can take it. What can we do about it?

Of course, I can blame the Activa for being much worse than my CBR250 - small wheels, low gyroscopic precession, terrible tires, lousy geometry and suspension, limited ability to shift weight (thanks GR!). But that's not the solution. I seek to find a way to moderate my riding style to avoid such washouts.

Good thing that you and your Son are OK.

As many others have said don't be harsh on yourself as it is part of the package.

Compared to motorcycles, scooters are less stable machines with the following factors attributing to its wild character.

1. Low rake angle which causes a sensitive quick steering

2. Small tyres - Less gyroscopic stability

3. More weight distribution towards the back - Light front end making it prone to low sides.

All two wheeler riders turn their rides using counter steering ( be it conscious or unconscious). The amount of pressure applied to the handlebars depends on the weight of the two wheeler, it's rake angle and tyre size. (Cruisers need more pressure on the handlebars when compared to sports bikes on corners)
For a person who rides a motorcycle, a lot of things can go wrong in a scooter. The main things is the absence of the gas tank to lock the knees, the process which helps in providing smooth steering inputs without any additional forces (body weight) being transmitted to the handle bars while shifting weight on corners.

So you being a CBR250 rider the way you counter steered based on your muscle memory would have caused the unstable scooter to power steer and must have cause the front wheel to break loose causing the low side.

As for my personal experience, I learned to ride on my Father's Bajaj Chetak and have experiences my fair share of front wheel lifts, rear wheel skids and head shakes !(Those who have ridden it will know it as an unbalanced scooter with a hell of a temper !)

But the scare of my life came after I was riding a Bullet for years and one day my Brother in law asked me to check out his HH Splendor. I rode the motorcycle dropped down a gear put pressure to the inner handle bar and hit a leftie and the motorcycle lied down faster than I expected. Don't know what all things I did involuntarily (including peeing my pants)..buy by God's grace escaped without any incidents.

While riding a scooter always remember that the things Keith Code taught has zilch effect on a scooter.

[ascension]

I have a very simple rule. When on scooters, ride with a lean angle which is 50% of what you would use (tilt) on a motorcycle when making any turn. This will automatically restrict the turn-in speed as well; the tyres, the geometry, with a higher CG, all combine to make turning on a scooter very scary.

As called out by several members, braking is another area of concern. With no suspension travel and short wheel diameter, scooters are so prone to locking. Hence, a very simple rule #2: only ride a scooter fast (50-80) on tarmac/asphalt roads where you have a braking distance of 100 meters or so available from a vehicle ahead of you and all vehicles are moving in this range of speed.

[Chillout]

I own a Honda Navi which has even more smaller tyres than an Activa, couple of times under hard braking the wheels locked out and experienced similar drift scenarios , however since it's a smaller bike I could regain control easily and touch wood, haven't had any touch down. That being said, scooters are always unsafe and over can loose control easily, when I take curves , I slow down to 20s as I feel it's safer and never try to be adventurous, I always under inflate the tyres for better grip.

[silverado]

Since you fell after 1.2 L kms of riding,this thing must be making you ponder over it again and again.
I would say - Just forget this incident as one off thing, can happen with most of us.

This thread is going to get some more pages, since everyone riding a scooter will have an opinion

If your ride bikes daily, then you would feel really uncomfortable riding a scooter since there is nothing to grip between your legs here.
Maybe, the road was not challenging till that point taking you off guard?

Next time rent a Wego as it handles much better than Activa.( Body Balance thing in wego does work ).
So don't lose hope on scooters, they are very practical machines.

[spgv]

Riding the yamaha rx all my highschool and college years i shifted to CBZ after grad. The kind of cornering i did on Yamaha was carried over to the CBZ. One fine day i found my self in similar situation as yours.
While negotiating a lefthander on perfect paved road, the bike, very smoothly lost traction on front wheel and before i could mitigate the leg-guard was scraping the road, and that was it. We found ourselves sliding on the road with the handlebar still in my grip. As is relieved my grip on the handle the bike skid all the way to opposit side of the road. We came out scratchless thanx to the riding gear. Takeaway from the incident. CBZ is entirely different machine then the yamaha.
After that incident my riding had changed instinctively. I think urs would also change now. Next time when u ride a scooter ull be far more conservative, instinctively.

[superbad]

A certain learning curve would be there for a scooter post extensive bike experience. Things like deliberately maintaining slower speed (although the scooter racers on road would make you wonder otherwise), anticipating braking earlier, taking turns, everything does feel different for a scooter. Most of all, the riding position seems unnatural when you immediately move to a scooter after a bike.