[ebonho]

Originally Posted by advstreak

Duke 200 2022 model has dry weight of 140 kg. Duke 390 2022 model has dry weight of 149 kg. That's 9 kg extra weight for 373 cc engine and related components change assuming chassis and most of the other components remain the same.

Now the NS200 kerb weight is 158 kg as per latest brochure. So NS400 should be 158+9= 167 at minimum. As Bajaj has a target price to meet they might have used cheaper, heavier material to keep the price in check and hence the extra 7 kg addition.

Need not necessarily be just 9 kilos only, coz Bajaj i understand uses iron sleeves on their cylinders compared to nikasil on the KTMs. Lots of other parts on the "same engine" would similarly be different materials and weight.

My point about a 2013 Duke 390 having a dry weight of 142 kg still stands though.

Even KTMs are getting hugely heavier. And hugely costlier. So where is that money going if not to lighter materials and components.

Cheers, Doc

[Motard_Blr]

Originally Posted by ebonho

...

Even KTMs are getting hugely heavier. And hugely costlier. So where is that money going if not to lighter materials and components.

Cheers, Doc

My understanding is that most of the cost increase is a result of compliance with BS6 regulations. This requires bigger catalytic converters, more sophisticated ECU, more sensors, bigger exhaust mufflers, etc.

And then there is inflation!

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

My understanding is that most of the cost increase is a result of compliance with BS6 regulations. This requires bigger catalytic converters, more sophisticated ECU, more sensors, bigger exhaust mufflers, etc.

And then there is inflation!

Thats my understanding too, based on the most often quoted reason for weight increase from Gen 1 to Gen 2 and then back a bit down with Gen 3 (in spite of a slightly bigger engine).

But I have in 11+ years, NEVER seen a detailed breakup parts-wise.

In performance bicycles, there are forums such as weight weenies, where each and every part has a weight, down to the last gram. And most manufacturers and OE vendors (like SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo for drivetrain components or 3R for stems and other finishing kit or Fizik for saddles or Continental for tyres or Fulcrum and Hunt for wheels, etc.) give component and assembly weight to the last gram.

Here there is only poorly informed conjecture in the guise of "facts" by auto juornos and influencers. The actual manufacturers stay mum.

Personally I believe its them working on their margins with inferior heavier materials. Over the years. After capturing markets with much higher quality initial offerings.

Cheers, Doc

[Motard_Blr]

The cost breakup is probably known to industry insiders. It is usually confidential information so it's unlikely you will ever see it in public.

Companies like Munro associates (look them up on YouTube. They have great videos on the design, construction, cost, etc. of various cars) do detailed analysis of the cost, down to nuts and bolts. They sell the analysis as reports.

The bicycle industry is very different from the rest of transportation. Other than the frame that the manufacturer himself designs and makes, all other parts are usually off the shelf. You don't usually find parts specially made for a specific bike or manufacturer. Even if you do, it's just customisation to a small extent.

The low volume approach of high end bikes, cars, etc cuts both ways. Flexibility at the cost of price but only to an extent. Beyond some limit, it's not feasible to have specially make parts. That's why the most expensive bike in the world still uses the latest and greatest from Shimano or others that are also used by other cheaper bikes. Super cars use various existing parts from other manufacturers that are often unseen by owners.

I think industry is approaching the limits of present technology and the law of diminishing returns is clamping down on innovation.

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by advstreak

At 174 Kg thats not bad. Not bad at all.

Seat height is also approachable by most at 807 mm. The only downside is the 12L fuel tank.

Attachment 2602141

That's still a very substantial 20kg weight reduction from the Domi, considering the modern emission equipment and the fact that Bajaj's 373 motor is heavier than KTM's due to different materials used. iirc, Gen 2 390s were around 168 kgs wet. With heavier cast mirrors from Domi, bigger wheels+tyres, bigger brake discs, bigger USD forks & more run of the mill box section swingarm, 170+kgs seems realistic.

What pricing though It's like 2013 all over again but it's an even bigger achievement considering the massive inflation in motorcycle prices.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

The cost breakup is probably known to industry insiders. It is usually confidential information so it's unlikely you will ever see it in public.

Companies like Munro associates (look them up on YouTube. They have great videos on the design, construction, cost, etc. of various cars) do detailed analysis of the cost, down to nuts and bolts. They sell the analysis as reports.

The bicycle industry is very different from the rest of transportation. Other than the frame that the manufacturer himself designs and makes, all other parts are usually off the shelf. You don't usually find parts specially made for a specific bike or manufacturer. Even if you do, it's just customisation to a small extent.

The low volume approach of high end bikes, cars, etc cuts both ways. Flexibility at the cost of price but only to an extent. Beyond some limit, it's not feasible to have specially make parts. That's why the most expensive bike in the world still uses the latest and greatest from Shimano or others that are also used by other cheaper bikes. Super cars use various existing parts from other manufacturers that are often unseen by owners.

I think industry is approaching the limits of present technology and the law of diminishing returns is clamping down on innovation.

Your points are valid.

But to be fair, all bicycle manufacturers openly give the weights of the frames and forks as well, on their own websites, down to the last gram, albeit usually only in a single size (usually M).

My point is, unless we actually know the weight increase BS6 compliance entails, with hard data, all our guesses are as good as each others.

Which should not be the case for paying public. Who is buying a bike at 4 lac plus in 2024, but it is still a lot heavier than the same bike (different version) another guy in 2013 paid 2 lacs for.

Personally, if I was the 2024 guy, I would not be happy.

Cheers, Doc

[Motard_Blr]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Your points are valid.

But to be fair, all bicycle manufacturers openly give the weights of the frames and forks as well.on the websites, albeit usually only in a single size (usually M).

My point is, unless we actually know the weight increase BS6 compliance entails, with hard data, all our guesses are as good as each others.

Which should not be the case for paying public. Who is buying a bike at 4 pac plus in 2024, but it is still.a lot heavier than the same bike (different version) another guy in 2013 paid 2 lacs for.

Personally, if I was the 2024 guy, I would not be happy.

Cheers, Doc

As a bike enthusiast, I agree with you on not being happy with the current offerings in the market. But I don't know how knowing more about the weight, manufacturing, etc. of components will be of much use. As an enthusiast, I love discussing the finer points of bikes with like-minded people (what my wife would call wasting time!) but at the end of the day, I can't do much about anything I am unhappy about.

I see it as a problem is of choice. While we see a lot of choice in the market for entry to mid level bikes now, it is only superficial. The products are only superficially different. The motorbike market is looking a lot like the mobile phone market. You either pick what you know or what feels good to you, without bothering with real differences in performance.

This is where the bicycle market scores full points. High end bikes look superficially similar but customisation is possible from the frame to the components, from nose to tail or saddle to tyre, although at a high price. There will be some combination that will satisfy everyone. The lack of regulation as compared to motor vehicles is a big factor in this.

In comparison, improvements in cars seems to be more noticeable. New engines, gearboxes, sun roof, ADAS, etc. are tangible additions and improvements. But on the two wheeler front, we're at Activa 100,000G, a 12 year old 200 NS with hardly any changes, Pulsars that are more boring with each new iteration,...

[payeng]

Originally Posted by ebonho

174 is underwhelming, considering the NS200 is 159.

Weight on a Motorcycle..

..that too on a 40Ps/35Nm "Naked" machine isn't exactly a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Silverfire

Hard NO on the marketing though.

I do not understand why they have to show these stunt riders doing maniacal driving in their launches.

I liked it :-)

[ebonho]

You are right. There is nothing we guys as Joe Public can do about it. You can only buy what is available. And across the board bikes are getting ridiculously priced, and heavier. From say 5-10 years ago.

However, we can definitely call out the BS6 nonsense unless they provide data that supports that claim.

Again on bicycles, high end road bikes in 2024 are significantly heavier than equivalent bike from 2014-2016, when we had the advent of disc brakes and aero this and that. But there the customer knows what he's losing for what he's gaining. Or at least what industry is trying to convince him he's gaining.

And there too, the customer has no choice. Because that's the direction industry, and every manufacturer is moving.

My rant is triggered by my expecting this 400 to be at least somewhere in the 160s in terms of weight.

Cheers, Doc

[MonsterTorque]

Eleven years ago, the KTM 390 Duke was launched at 1.83 lacs and, today, the Bajaj Pulsar NS 400 is being launched at almost the same price. Though it is old wine in a new bottle, the pricing takes the cake. The 390 Duke was value for money in 2013, and the NS 400 has continued this trend, enabled by economies of scale. This is going to kill the competition in the category.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by payeng

I liked it :-)

Me too.

In the old Pulsar days, these were all local Poona stunters we would see on our streets everyday.

Some of the earlier Pulsar TV commercials with these were really internationally edgy and slick.

Pulsar has never claimed to be a serious uncle brand. It will always be aspirational to street puppies and what we old farts call squids.

Or cchapris.

But some of the best and now senior bikers and influencers and mentors in the riding scene today in India were these same squids and cchapris in 2004-5.

Wont name names.

Cheers, Doc

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Me too.

In the old Pulsar days, these were all local Poona stunters we would see on our streets everyday.

Some of the earlier Pulsar TV commercials with these were really internationally edgy and slick.

Pulsar has never claimed to be a serious uncle brand. It will always be aspirational to street puppies and what we old farts call squids.

Or cchapris.

But some of the best and now senior bikers and influencers and mentors in the riding scene today in India were these same squids and cchapris in 2004-5.

Wont name names.

Cheers, Doc

The Pulsar Mania TV commercial remains my all time favourite commercial from a motorcycle brand in India. And great music to boot

[ebonho]

https://youtu.be/gpHsE_c6wkA?si=3oQBjyUc05b9z0cB

Cheers, Doc

[Williams_f1]

Wow! What a great time for bikers in our country! The New KTMs (actually KTMs since they launched here), Triumphs, HD/Hero 440, RE on a rampage and now this. Bajaj is just killing the value equation, Power for the masses - just love it.

I own a year old Duke 200 and keep wondering with all these launches whether I jumped the gun but no! I am super happy with my bike and find it has good blend of power-handling-maintenance-mileage-image.

Lets see how this sells, I feel Bajaj has created a ceiling for their Pulsar brand, sitting below KTM and Triumphs, Pulsar is an aspirational brand for masses know for its value proposition and blend of power and economy, a hotted up 400cc Pulsar feels like middle of nowhere positioning, it will definitely create a Halo affect for the lower models in the family, they should have made it more new but then they could probably not meet the price.

Ironically cars are getting expensive and performance bikes more accessible!

[V0rtex]

Originally Posted by ebonho

My rant is triggered by my expecting this 400 to be at least somewhere in the 160s in terms of weight.

Cheers, Doc

Bajaj's target demographic for this bike will be very broad. The attractive price might make a beginner, who considered a 20ish bhp bike, jump into a bike twice as powerful. If they had made it any lighter, I think it would result in a lot of accidents, similar to what happened in the past when unfamiliar riders were given the RD 350 and the Dukes.

The NS400 likely has a larger sprocket than the Dominar, which might explain its 154 km/hr top speed. But at this weight, it's much lighter than that Dominar 400 and slightly lighter than the Speed 400. So, I think that the acceleration ( 0 -100 ) would be somewhere in the 6.xx range. Which is super quick for a sub 2 lakhs bike, as most of the bikes in this range are in the 10 second range.