[hserus]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

Can you say what it is about stop-start traffic that classifies it as a severe riding scenario? I can see why mountain riding will be so, but one is going quite slowly in stop-start traffic with slow acceleration, and there isn't much heat (relatively) generated by an air cooled engine.

Halving the interval makes sense, but then the yearly cost will come out more than replacing a synthetic once a year. Then going with the synthetic may not be a bad idea. Just a thought.

Isn't an air cooled engine cooled by airflow, and where do you get much of that in stop start traffic? Not to mention sustained idling at signals unless you switch off and then have to kick the bike back into life when your self starter doesn't always perform on demand. The oil heats up in such a situation and detiorates faster than in a liquid cooled engine, correct me if I am wrong.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

But I've also heard of high quality air filters (K&N?) that enhance air intake and increase efficiency. Would you say the same about such items? .

Yes I would. And regularly do. You will notice I mentioned iridium plugs and piggyback ECUs ... I've mentioned standalone pod filters similarly in another post elsewhere in a discussion about iridium plugs.

Here is my Bullet with pod filters. 20 years ago. At the turn of the millennium.



















Sometimes its just easier, cheaper and less painful to listen. To people who have been there before you. And are trying to help. With the experience and knowledge they have picked up along the way.

So that you do not make the same mistakes they did.

Make your own new mistakes. And learn from those. And share with those who come after you.

Cheers, Doc

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Engines are designed and their oil specifications are set up to do well under all conditions. Running on the highway is, contrary to popular belief, one of the least wearing scenarios. At 80-90 km/h your engine is not on full load at all. And it is still getting excellent cooling Constant acceleration from stand still, and or low speeds I.e. city driving, and short drives in which the engine doesn’t warm up properly are far more harmful.

Given that cold starts are where most engine wear happens, and also slow riding, wouldn't a fully synthetic be better at preventing engine wear? I think they start to flow immediately, and provide instant lubrication to the engine. Also, would an FS have better high heat tolerance than a semi-synthetic like the one supplied with RE?

I can tell you one thing on Motul. All high end car and engine restoration folk I know will only use Motul after they overhauled an engine. Especially for engine with high performance and race and rally prepared engines.
Jeroen

Thanks. Good to know that. Clearly, an FS Motul oil will be an overkill of a low-revving engine like the RE.

[windiesel]

Originally Posted by hserus

They have given you the spec they require (15w50 API SL, JASO MA) for the precise reason that you can acquire and use any other brand that fits this spec.

Precisely!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

Given that cold starts are where most engine wear happens, and also slow riding, wouldn't a fully synthetic be better at preventing engine wear? I think they start to flow immediately, and provide instant lubrication to the engine. Also, would an FS have better high heat tolerance than a semi-synthetic like the one supplied with RE?
.

Not necessarily. If an engine was not designed to run on synthetic oil, the chances are it will do more harm than good.

As I have been trying to make clear: there is no reason to think about oil, or research the internet. The car manufacturer has done all of that for you.

Just consult the owner manual and stick to whatever it advises you to use. Can’t go wrong with that. Any advice beyond that of the manufacturer is unlikely to be based on any research resembling the time and money the manufacturer has put into its advice. As I mentioned earlier. I don’t see the Internet oil guru’s taking oil samples, having them analysed, and or taking the engine apart at regular intervals to measure wear and tear.

Don’t believe the internet, believe the owner manual

Jeroen

[MT_Hyderabad]

Originally Posted by hserus

They have given you the spec they require (15w50 API SL, JASO MA) for the precise reason that you can acquire and use any other brand that fits this spec.

This is not the way to recommend oil spec in the owners manual. The spec is linked to the RE oil, there may be some other RE oil with other spec also.

Some users may not find a JASO MA oil with the same spec as most of the new ones are JASO MA2.

A good and clear recommendation is also shared in my post. There is a difference of night and day between the two recommendations.

It would be foolish to follow advice from arm chair recommenders to strictly follow the owners manual in this case. If one has money, he should experiment with the higher grades available in the market and then decide whether he wants to come back to the owners manual recommended oil or continue with the more advanced oil.

@ebonho Let people make non dangerous mistakes which you have made earlier. Maybe they will find something new with the advanced metallurgy and oil research.
The OP can change back anytime. Maybe with their experimentation, you could also get benefitted.

[hserus]

MA2 is fully backwards compatible with MA - non friction modified oils for wet clutch bikes. If you have a CVT bike or scooter it will need a JASO MB spec (which is friction modified)

Feel free to use whatever JASO MA2 oil for this spec. It will hurt the engine far less (or not at all) compared to the diesel 15w40 (API C*) oils that various people keep pouring into their bikes.

As for Honda their BS6 specs are weird. Here is a letter I sent them, attached. Their only action was to refer it to the dealer where I last serviced my city (!). OK it isn't related to bullets but as long as there are people who know oil here, and there are clearly several, I'd appreciate your opinions.

[MT_Hyderabad]

Originally Posted by hserus

MA2 is fully backwards compatible with MA - non friction modified oils for wet clutch bikes. If you have a CVT bike or scooter it will need a JASO MB spec (which is friction modified)

Feel free to use whatever JASO MA2 oil for this spec. It will hurt the engine far less.

This is the whole point of discussion in this thread.

RE does not recommend to use higher grades. It is not mentioned in the owners manual clearly.

I know that JASO MA2 is backward compatible with MA, that's why I mentioned that OP may not find a JASO MA oil in the market.

The problem statement is:
Can OP use more advanced oil in RE or not?

Response from those who support: Yes.
Reason given by supporters: I did it, it worked; I saw the manual, you can use the more advanced oil; I did it in my car and it worked.

Response from others: No.
Reason given: Owners manual is holy grail, do not deviate; I have done it few years ago, it didn't work;
Other oil will damage the engine; oil gurus do not test the oil and it is only the manufacturer's word that rule the world.

My stance on the topic: More advanced oils would not harm the engine in any way. Manufacturer may have commercial motive behind the decision of not recommending more advanced oils or it may be just because they want to keep the maintenence costs low for the general public.

People may have grey'ed their hair and were successful in the past, but it doesn't mean that OP has not got any chance left with his experimentation.

What is the risk for the OP?
Engine damage? Not at all possible as per me.
There are people in this thread itself who stated that they have tried and didn't feel any difference and came back. I am sure their bikes are running well till now .

Why are they discouraging OP?
They don't want him to make the same mistake.
OP should value this concern and thank them for the same, but try for himself and then decide.

My uncle burnt his fingers in the stock market, he used to advice me not to venture into it, when I started earning. I am not exaggerating, I have made more money he saved in his whole lifetime in the last one year from the stock market, of course there is inflation involved as he stopped earning in late 1990s.
But the crux of the matter is, do not push your decisions or learnings to others, mention the risks to them, if they are not dangerous let them decide.

The midway between these two school of thoughts is: OP can mail RE that he has selected XYZ brand of FS oil, which meets the API/JASO/SAE recommendation mentioned in the manual and then decide. But here also, he should be prepared to get a generic response from them, if any. In that case OP can request to create their own spec like RE A5/B5 v. 01 and publish the methods used to test the oil and then request oil companies to mention on their label that they meet or exceed that spec, just like what they do with Ford, Merc and other manufacturer specs.
But looking at the volumes used in motorbikes and the number of REs on the road, they will just laugh it out and say thank you, we do not want this market!

[hserus]

So basically - many of the people who have burnt their fingers using different oils have used random oils going by just the brand or weight but not the spec or whatever spec updates / supersedes it.

Funny thing is even if the engine hasn't changed the manufacturer may go and update the oil specification just for various reasons (more fuel economy, same oil can be filled for more advanced models that he has released in the years since your car or bike came out, etc) - but they won't even change the recommendation, just give their dealers some oil to fill into all cars or bikes that come to them.

[adrian]

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...ml#post3654532 (Royal Enfield Bullet oil change...)

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...ml#post3765869 (Royal Enfield Bullet oil change...)

Two posts from ArizonaJim on the subject. Not seeing any posts from him now a days. Hope everything is fine with him.

I am not an engineer, but, the following is from experience.
Mine is a 2011 UCE. The oil specified as per the manual is Motul 3000 4T Plus 15 W 50 API SL JASO MA. I have used Motul 5100 15 W 50 a couple of times and the liquid gun from RE for the recent 9K plus ride to Ladakh. Currently running on Motul 300 V 15W50 for my daily 80 km commute for the last couple of months. After using 300V, the gear shifts have become smooth, the engine vibrations have reduced and the engine oil is not turning dark as with mineral and semi synthetics. The oil window is still clear green after 1500 kms of changing oil.

[RD410]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

Great! This is what I've been hearing about too. While I can see why it might be a good idea to keep things simple and half the change interval if using the RE oil, fully synthetics seem to have that not-easy-to-define qualitative edge.

Again, what exactly do oils like 300 V have that makes them not suitable for the Std 350?

Thanks.

Recommending brands is a tricky one. Different automobile brands behave differently with different engine oil brands. For eg - Honda's work the best with Castrol and Veedol, but they run hot and rough with Motul, Servo, Mak, etc. Royal Enfield Lquid Gun is made by HP, if I am not wrong. So you can try any XXw50 grade full synthetic from HP.

Racing oils like 300V are formulated for high compression (11+), high revving engines which have extremely tight tolerances. If we use such oils in low compression engines, there is risk of oil getting burned away / consumed. If not noticed, it can even lead to engine seizure.

And as for manufacturer recommendations, let me tell you what I have witnessed first hand. I used to work at Maruti Suzuki spares section where they keep good stock of required engine oil. Oil comes in 200L barrels, directly from the refinery. At first it was only 20w40 which they stocked and recommended for all their F & G series engines. Then as K series engines and it's newer versions like K10C, K15B, K15C came, they started stocking and recommending 5w30, 0w20 and 0w16 grade. During this time, they discontinued and stopped stocking 20w40 and changed official oil recommendation for F & G series to 5w30! Old school Maruti Engines like F8, F10, G13, G16, etc work the best with XXw40 grade, but now those customers who still service at ASC's, have no option other than to fill 5w30. But still, those old engines are capable of dealing with low viscosity upto 5w30. Now here comes the interesting part, Maruti will slowly discontinue 5w30 and change the recommendation to 0w20 for all engines. Mind you, 0w20 is not at all suitable for
engines older than 2014. Yet there are already so many posts detailing how Maruti ASC 'accidentally' filled 0w20 instead of 5w30. Nothing here is accidental. Even for 2 wheeler makers viz. Hero, Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Bajaj, TVS, etc. first it was 20w40 recommended for all motorcycles and scooters, then they changed it to 10w30 and now it is 5w30 since 2020/bs6.

What I am trying to say is that It's all about maximum profitable inventory keeping and economies of scale. It's not feasible for ASC's to keep huge stock of multiple oil grades, hence the manufacturer changes oil recommendations over time. Right now RE maybe recommending Liquid Gun 15w50. But as newer, modern engines come, like Sherpa 450, upcoming 750 twin, etc. they may change recommended oil grades and mandate it for older UCE models as well.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Not necessarily. If an engine was not designed to run on synthetic oil, the chances are it will do more harm than good.

As I have been trying to make clear: there is no reason to think about oil, or research the internet. The car manufacturer has done all of that for you.

Just consult the owner manual and stick to whatever it advises you to use. Can’t go wrong with that. Any advice beyond that of the manufacturer is unlikely to be based on any research resembling the time and money the manufacturer has put into its advice. As I mentioned earlier. I don’t see the Internet oil guru’s taking oil samples, having them analysed, and or taking the engine apart at regular intervals to measure wear and tear.

Don’t believe the internet, believe the owner manual

Jeroen

Originally Posted by MT_Hyderabad

This is not the way to recommend oil spec in the owners manual. The spec is linked to the RE oil, there may be some other RE oil with other spec also.

Some users may not find a JASO MA oil with the same spec as most of the new ones are JASO MA2.

A good and clear recommendation is also shared in my post. There is a difference of night and day between the two recommendations.

It would be foolish to follow advice from arm chair recommenders to strictly follow the owners manual in this case. If one has money, he should experiment with the higher grades available in the market and then decide whether he wants to come back to the owners manual recommended oil or continue with the more advanced oil.

@ebonho Let people make non dangerous mistakes which you have made earlier. Maybe they will find something new with the advanced metallurgy and oil research.
The OP can change back anytime. Maybe with their experimentation, you could also get benefitted.

Originally Posted by MT_Hyderabad

This is the whole point of discussion in this thread.

RE does not recommend to use higher grades. It is not mentioned in the owners manual clearly.

I know that JASO MA2 is backward compatible with MA, that's why I mentioned that OP may not find a JASO MA oil in the market.

The problem statement is:
Can OP use more advanced oil in RE or not?

Response from those who support: Yes.
Reason given by supporters: I did it, it worked; I saw the manual, you can use the more advanced oil; I did it in my car and it worked.

Response from others: No.
Reason given: Owners manual is holy grail, do not deviate; I have done it few years ago, it didn't work;
Other oil will damage the engine; oil gurus do not test the oil and it is only the manufacturer's word that rule the world.

My stance on the topic: More advanced oils would not harm the engine in any way. Manufacturer may have commercial motive behind the decision of not recommending more advanced oils or it may be just because they want to keep the maintenence costs low for the general public.

People may have grey'ed their hair and were successful in the past, but it doesn't mean that OP has not got any chance left with his experimentation.

What is the risk for the OP?
Engine damage? Not at all possible as per me.
There are people in this thread itself who stated that they have tried and didn't feel any difference and came back. I am sure their bikes are running well till now .

Why are they discouraging OP?
They don't want him to make the same mistake.
OP should value this concern and thank them for the same, but try for himself and then decide.

My uncle burnt his fingers in the stock market, he used to advice me not to venture into it, when I started earning. I am not exaggerating, I have made more money he saved in his whole lifetime in the last one year from the stock market, of course there is inflation involved as he stopped earning in late 1990s.
But the crux of the matter is, do not push your decisions or learnings to others, mention the risks to them, if they are not dangerous let them decide.

The midway between these two school of thoughts is: OP can mail RE that he has selected XYZ brand of FS oil, which meets the API/JASO/SAE recommendation mentioned in the manual and then decide. But here also, he should be prepared to get a generic response from them, if any. In that case OP can request to create their own spec like RE A5/B5 v. 01 and publish the methods used to test the oil and then request oil companies to mention on their label that they meet or exceed that spec, just like what they do with Ford, Merc and other manufacturer specs.
But looking at the volumes used in motorbikes and the number of REs on the road, they will just laugh it out and say thank you, we do not want this market!

Originally Posted by RD410

Recommending brands is a tricky one. Different automobile brands behave differently with different engine oil brands. For eg - Honda's work the best with Castrol and Veedol, but they run hot and rough with Motul, Servo, Mak, etc. Royal Enfield Lquid Gun is made by HP, if I am not wrong. So you can try any XXw50 grade full synthetic from HP.

Racing oils like 300V are formulated for high compression (11+), high revving engines which have extremely tight tolerances. If we use such oils in low compression engines, there is risk of oil getting burned away / consumed. If not noticed, it can even lead to engine seizure.

And as for manufacturer recommendations, let me tell you what I have witnessed first hand. I used to work at Maruti Suzuki spares section where they keep good stock of required engine oil. Oil comes in 200L barrels, directly from the refinery. At first it was only 20w40 which they stocked and recommended for all their F & G series engines. Then as K series engines and it's newer versions like K10C, K15B, K15C came, they started stocking and recommending 5w30, 0w20 and 0w16 grade. During this time, they discontinued and stopped stocking 20w40 and changed official oil recommendation for F & G series to 5w30! Old school Maruti Engines like F8, F10, G13, G16, etc work the best with XXw40 grade, but now those customers who still service at ASC's, have no option other than to fill 5w30. But still, those old engines are capable of dealing with low viscosity upto 5w30. Now here comes the interesting part, Maruti will slowly discontinue 5w30 and change the recommendation to 0w20 for all engines. Mind you, 0w20 is not at all suitable for
engines older than 2014. Yet there are already so many posts detailing how Maruti ASC 'accidentally' filled 0w20 instead of 5w30. Nothing here is accidental. Even for 2 wheeler makers viz. Hero, Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Bajaj, TVS, etc. first it was 20w40 recommended for all motorcycles and scooters, then they changed it to 10w30 and now it is 5w30 since 2020/bs6.

What I am trying to say is that It's all about maximum profitable inventory keeping and economies of scale. It's not feasible for ASC's to keep huge stock of multiple oil grades, hence the manufacturer changes oil recommendations over time. Right now RE maybe recommending Liquid Gun 15w50. But as newer, modern engines come, like Sherpa 450, upcoming 750 twin, etc. they may change recommended oil grades and mandate it for older UCE models as well.

Guys, thanks for this useful debate. I did not know many of these nuances. Thanks!

I am, however, getting a bit lost in the details. Clearly, there is a strong case for simply continuing with the RE OEM oil made by HP. As indicated, I could just half the change interval if I wanted to be extra careful.

Let me ask you about two key issues because of which I started this thread.

1) What do I need to do to increase the service life of the engine?

(I know about regular maintenance etc. and I am really thinking here in terms of the quality of engine oil I should use)

2) From what I can make out, an FS oil still has these advantages: It'll provide much better protection in stop-start traffic, hard acceleration, and more importantly up in the mountains when I go with a pillion and full luggage. In other words, tolerance to heat is a big difference between, say the Shell Ultra and RE.

Essentially, this is also about figuring out what the key differences between semi-synthetic and synthetic oils, and how these play out for low-revving motorcycles.

Thanks!

[hserus]

Go ahead and use a synthetic if you want. There really isn't as much of a difference between a well formulated mineral or a fully synthetic of the same weight beyond the oil drain interval being much shorter for mineral especially when it comes to short city runs.

Just change oil frequently and you should be fine regardless of which oil.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

I am, however, getting a bit lost in the details.

The cast iron in its stock state is such a low stressed low compression motor that it does not really need a synthetic oil which would not break down under heat. But if you must you can use the synthetic without any problem.

My ex Bullet CI350, two spark plugs, high compression, ported, 28mm carb etc.

[RD410]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

1) What do I need to do to increase the service life of the engine?

(I know about regular maintenance etc. and I am really thinking here in terms of the quality of engine oil I should use)

Try Castrol just once, to understand whether there are any perceptible changes or not. Try Power1 Ultimate 15w50, which is a full synthetic but it comes in 1L pack, so you will need to buy 3 packs. You can also try Power1 Cruise 15w50, but I just found that it is a semi-synthetic. If there's not much change, then revert back to RE Liquid Gun. I bet you will feel positive changes, because even mineral oils from Castrol are superior and well formulated.

Personally, I am not comfortable with extending drain intervals. Indian conditions are extremely harsh and even the best FS oil will loose it's lubrication properties around 4-5k kms. Hence I drain the oil slightly before the normal drain interval (before 4k for scooter/bike and before 10k for car).