[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by ebonho

There is ZERO difference between a mineral dino oil and a synthetic one if both are the same grade. The drain interval is only longer. And you pay a lot (too much?) for that.

Are we sure about this? What happens in a high stress scenario? Sustained highway runs on full load at speeds above 80-90 kmph? Going up on mountain roads with a full load?

It would help if someone could enlighten us about the additives that come with the RE supplied oil. And then tell us which special additives Motul or Shell Ultra have over and above RE.

Thanks.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I will put the best quality mineral oil I can get, and pay the price. And then compare. And I have (currently in my high revving Duke 390 ... Petronas 10w50 fully mineral oil ... used by racers across India) and it runs as quick and smooth as with the standard SVC fully synthetic oil. And at 60-70% of the price too (I do not recall the exact difference as I do not know the current price of the SVC filled Motul).

This is a well known fact among people who know versus the self styled pundits. That mineral oils are as good as synthetic oils. Only their other natural components (sulphur for instance) make them break down sooner and not last as long.

The grades of oil are based on specific universal standards and tests. Internationally accepted, validated and approved. Therefore if a mineral oil is meeting the same specs as a fully synthetic oil, it is EXACTLY as good as the fully synthetic oil when you put it into your engine.

How long it maintains those same property standards is where the difference lies. Important caveat.

This is interesting. This means that the only difference between a high quality semi-synthetic and a fullly synthetic oil is the oil change interval?
If so, then there may be little reason for me to be looking towards synthetics for use with the Classic 350/Std 350. After all, the change interval for the RE oil is already 1 year, which is quite good.
Does that mean the service life of the engine, fuel efficiency, and smoothness will not differ significantly between the RE oil and other fully synthetic options?

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

Does that mean the service life of the engine, fuel efficiency, and smoothness will not differ significantly between the RE oil and other fully synthetic options?

If the oil is healthy, and has not degraded or deteriorated, and of the exact same grade and specifications, then no, there will be no difference to your engine. You on the other hand will be slightly poorer. And might claim subjective perceptional observations online and in person to feel and rationalize to yourself that your extra money was well spent.

Like iridium spark plugs. And piggyback ECUs.

Cheers, Doc

[hserus]

Let us put it this way - if the bike is put through severe service such as frequent use in stop and go traffic, mountains with a full load etc, then you would be better off halving the recommended oil change interval.

A costlier synthetic may perform better in extreme conditions like sub zero cold weather in the mountains or sustained heavy load rides up steep roads, off road etc due to a more robust additive pack that copes with such use cases better. For day to day regular use there is little or no difference other than a shorter oil change interval.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by hserus

Let us put it this way - if the bike is put through severe service such as frequent use in stop and go traffic, mountains with a full load etc, then you would be better off halving the recommended oil change interval.

Yup. Perfect. Just the act of draining out used oil, seeing it black and used and discarded. And putting in a nice fluffy brand new oil filter and O ring maybe with a fresh batch of dino juice makes me all gooey and my bike feel better, perkier, smoother and faster.

I could personally never go a full year on my bike without changing my oil. Regardless of what the manufacturer recommends. For my Storme it is common practice. 12 months to 12 months. Like clockwork. Over 10 years.

Cheers, Doc

[RD410]

Disclaimer - I am not stating or concluding anything, just sharing my experience.

I don't own a Royal Enfield, so I am not sure if my reply is helpful. I shifted from Honda OE 10w30 mineral to Castrol fully synthetic 5w40 oil on my daily commute, a Honda scooter, purely as an experiment. You can see that I shifted both the type and grade of oil. Initially I was really apprehensive, but here are the observations -

• When I was using Honda OE 10w30 mineral oil, the scooter didn't like to cross 60kph. Anything above 65, the engine felt like it will explode. Tank to tank fuel average was 42 kpl. It's engine used to heat in city and become really rough after 30 mins of continuous riding. And cold starting was a nightmare, required at least 15-20 kicks. The smoothness lasted only upto 1.5k kms. In short, I used to hate riding my scooter.

• After shifting to Castrol Power1 Ultimate 5w40, first big change is that cold start issue has vanished, now it always starts in first 1-2 cranks. Secondly, now the scooter loves doing speeds. It is able to sit at 70-80 kph all day long, no stress on the engine. Engine heating has reduced substantially. All the minute noises from engine have gone and now the exhaust note is crisp. Tank to tank fuel average has risen to 50kpl. The best thing about this oil is consistency of performance. This oil gave me the confidence to take my scooter on multiple 150-200kms rides along with 150-160 class motorcycles. Each time, the oil didn't break down a bit, even after riding continuously for 100kms with pillion. This consistency is intact throughout the drain interval.

So yeah, I think my experiment was a success. Fully synthetic oil unlocked the full potential of my scooter and made me love it. Now I am like 7or 8 bottles down and never going back to mineral oil. From a price to use point of view, people find my decision to be stupid. But what I cannot make people understand, is that how a mere engine oil has managed to change my machine and my emotions towards it. I need to clarify here that I am using a fully synthetic oil which is specifically formulated for scooters, at least that's what Castrol says. So if you do try FS oil on your Enfield, stick to the ones which are formulated for long distance cruisers, like Power 1 cruise or something. Top of the line racing oils like 300V would be an overkill for an old school thumper.

Tl;dr - Tried FS oil as an experiment and it made me love my scooter. Now I can't wait to try FS on my car.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

Are we sure about this? What happens in a high stress scenario? Sustained highway runs on full load at speeds above 80-90 kmph? Going up on mountain roads with a full load?

It would help if someone could enlighten us about the additives that come with the RE supplied oil. And then tell us which special additives Motul or Shell Ultra have over and above RE.

Thanks.

Engines are designed and their oil specifications are set up to do well under all conditions. Running on the highway is, contrary to popular belief, one of the least wearing scenarios. At 80-90 km/h your engine is not on full load at all. And it is still getting excellent cooling Constant acceleration from stand still, and or low speeds I.e. city driving, and short drives in which the engine doesn’t warm up properly are far more harmful.

100K on the odo in three years means lots of highway runs, 100K in 6 years means lots of city driving and probably relative short trips. If you would open these two different engines you would be able to measure a noticeable difference of wear on the bearings, cam lobes, piston rings and cilinder liners. Even when they used I’d identical oils.

I can tell you one thing on Motul. All high end car and engine restoration folk I know will only use Motul after they overhauled an engine. Especially for engine with high performance and race and rally prepared engines.

Jeroen

[rakesh_r]

Originally Posted by 2wheelsvaga

Thanks. Were these bikes used mostly for city rides, or on the highway at speeds above 80 kmph (full load)? I imagine there will be a significant difference between these riding scenarios. The highest quality oils may attenuate engine wear and smoothness here.

Mix of both, office commute on weekdays, Pune to Mumbai and back on weekends.

[windiesel]

Originally Posted by MT_Hyderabad

The owner's manual recommends only Royal Enfield oil. If we go by the manual, no other oil can be used; completely disregarding Competetion Act 2002.

RE has only Recommended, not made it binding by making it Mandatory. Thus as long as one uses the 'Recommended' grade, it should be fine and won't void the warranty or create issues with functioning of the Engine. The RE engines are Air Cooled, but for the new Himalayan450, and they have lower compression ratio and higher tolerances than a typical liquid cooled high strung engine like in a KTM390, and are thus less sensitive to change in the recommended oil grade. If you go wider than the recommended grade, say 10W50 instead of the recommended 15W50, it should be fine. After the second service of my Meteor350, I tried fully Synthetic once, and 10W50 once, felt absolutely no discernible change, so switched back to RE liquid gun. Thereafter, I haven't strayed from what's written in the book for either my Meteor or it's new stable mate, a Triumph Speed 400! Cheers and happy riding

[hserus]

Originally Posted by windiesel

If you go wider than the recommended grade, say 10W50 instead of the recommended 15W50, it should be fine. After the second service of my Meteor350, I tried fully Synthetic once, and 10W50 once, felt absolutely no discernible change, so switched back to RE liquid gun.

The only time and place you would feel a difference between a 10w50 and a 15w50 would be when it is cold enough for the 15w to matter, under -20 C or so. That is, if you're riding your Bullet to Spiti or somewhere like that. Nothing on the Indian plains not even the famous dilli ki sardi is going to make your oil anything other than a 50 weight one instead of a 10 or 15 weight.

[MT_Hyderabad]

Originally Posted by windiesel

RE has only Recommended, not made it binding by making it Mandatory. Thus as long as one uses the 'Recommended' grade, it should be fine and won't void the warranty or create issues with functioning of the Engine.

RE did not recommend well.

They only recommended their own oil. Usually, manufacturers mention that either their own oil or an oil meeting the recommended specification could be used. For Example, see the recommendation from Honda. They also have their own oil.

RE pasted the picture of their own oil also, as if users are illiterate.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by MT_Hyderabad

RE did not recommend well.

They only recommended their own oil.

They have given you the spec they require (15w50 API SL, JASO MA) for the precise reason that you can acquire and use any other brand that fits this spec.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by ebonho

If the oil is healthy, and has not degraded or deteriorated, and of the exact same grade and specifications, then no, there will be no difference to your engine. You on the other hand will be slightly poorer. And might claim subjective perceptional observations online and in person to feel and rationalize to yourself that your extra money was well spent.

Like iridium spark plugs. And piggyback ECUs.

Cheers, Doc

Of course. I am sure these fancy items will barely make a difference to a simple engine like the Std 350's.
But I've also heard of high quality air filters (K&N?) that enhance air intake and increase efficiency. Would you say the same about such items?
And, generally speaking, are there any other parts that one can upgrade, which will improve efficiency and performance?
Thanks.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by hserus

Let us put it this way - if the bike is put through severe service such as frequent use in stop and go traffic, mountains with a full load etc, then you would be better off halving the recommended oil change interval.

A costlier synthetic may perform better in extreme conditions like sub zero cold weather in the mountains or sustained heavy load rides up steep roads, off road etc due to a more robust additive pack that copes with such use cases better. For day to day regular use there is little or no difference other than a shorter oil change interval.

Can you say what it is about stop-start traffic that classifies it as a severe riding scenario? I can see why mountain riding will be so, but one is going quite slowly in stop-start traffic with slow acceleration, and there isn't much heat (relatively) generated by an air cooled engine.

Halving the interval makes sense, but then the yearly cost will come out more than replacing a synthetic once a year. Then going with the synthetic may not be a bad idea. Just a thought.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by RD410

Disclaimer - I am not stating or concluding anything, just sharing my experience.

I don't own a Royal Enfield, so I am not sure if my reply is helpful. I shifted from Honda OE 10w30 mineral to Castrol fully synthetic 5w40 oil on my daily commute, a Honda scooter, purely as an experiment. You can see that I shifted both the type and grade of oil. Initially I was really apprehensive, but here are the observations -

• When I was using Honda OE 10w30 mineral oil, the scooter didn't like to cross 60kph. Anything above 65, the engine felt like it will explode. Tank to tank fuel average was 42 kpl. It's engine used to heat in city and become really rough after 30 mins of continuous riding. And cold starting was a nightmare, required at least 15-20 kicks. The smoothness lasted only upto 1.5k kms. In short, I used to hate riding my scooter.

• After shifting to Castrol Power1 Ultimate 5w40, first big change is that cold start issue has vanished, now it always starts in first 1-2 cranks. Secondly, now the scooter loves doing speeds. It is able to sit at 70-80 kph all day long, no stress on the engine. Engine heating has reduced substantially. All the minute noises from engine have gone and now the exhaust note is crisp. Tank to tank fuel average has risen to 50kpl. The best thing about this oil is consistency of performance. This oil gave me the confidence to take my scooter on multiple 150-200kms rides along with 150-160 class motorcycles. Each time, the oil didn't break down a bit, even after riding continuously for 100kms with pillion. This consistency is intact throughout the drain interval.

So yeah, I think my experiment was a success. Fully synthetic oil unlocked the full potential of my scooter and made me love it. Now I am like 7or 8 bottles down and never going back to mineral oil. From a price to use point of view, people find my decision to be stupid. But what I cannot make people understand, is that how a mere engine oil has managed to change my machine and my emotions towards it. I need to clarify here that I am using a fully synthetic oil which is specifically formulated for scooters, at least that's what Castrol says. So if you do try FS oil on your Enfield, stick to the ones which are formulated for long distance cruisers, like Power 1 cruise or something. Top of the line racing oils like 300V would be an overkill for an old school thumper.

Tl;dr - Tried FS oil as an experiment and it made me love my scooter. Now I can't wait to try FS on my car.

Great! This is what I've been hearing about too. While I can see why it might be a good idea to keep things simple and half the change interval if using the RE oil, fully synthetics seem to have that not-easy-to-define qualitative edge. And yes, like you, I would certainly enjoy and appreciate what such an oil does to the engine.

Can you recommend brands other than Castrol Power 1 cruise?

Again, what exactly do oils like 300 V have that makes them not suitable for the Std 350?

Thanks.