[Sam800]

Originally Posted by ebonho

There is ZERO difference between a mineral dino oil and a synthetic one if both are the same grade. The drain interval is only longer. And you pay a lot (too much?) for that.

I'm sorry to differ here but Synthetic oils can surely bring a huge difference. Put a cheap mineral oil and then a top quality synthetic oil in your vehicle, see how happy the engine gets.
Synthetic oils have better protection, they are durable in withstanding higher temps and in absorbing vibrations.


Synthetic oils are there for a reason. The old engines can pull off just fine with mineral oil too, but the vibrations, harshness and engine note will be higher ofcourse.
But that doesn't mean it's harmful for engine, but you'll have to keep the engine out of any extremes.
With synthetics, engine will be better protected at higher revs, higher temps and loads.

For context, my Pulsar sips more oil on redlining when i use semi synthetic compared to when i use synthetic. And yes, its engine is all okay, as checked by Bajaj mechanics.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Sam800

Put a cheap mineral oil and then a top quality synthetic oil in your vehicle, see how happy the engine gets.

I'm sorry to differ too. Why should I put a cheap mineral oil and a top quality synthetic oil and THEN compare? Is that a fair comparison?

No.

I will put the best quality mineral oil I can get, and pay the price. And then compare. And I have (currently in my high revving Duke 390 ... Petronas 10w50 fully mineral oil ... used by racers across India) and it runs as quick and smooth as with the standard SVC fully synthetic oil. And at 60-70% of the price too (I do not recall the exact difference as I do not know the current price of the SVC filled Motul).

This is a well known fact among people who know versus the self styled pundits. That mineral oils are as good as synthetic oils. Only their other natural components (sulphur for instance) make them break down sooner and not last as long.

The grades of oil are based on specific universal standards and tests. Internationally accepted, validated and approved. Therefore if a mineral oil is meeting the same specs as a fully synthetic oil, it is EXACTLY as good as the fully synthetic oil when you put it into your engine.

How long it maintains those same property standards is where the difference lies. Important caveat.

Being from industry myself I can also tell you that mineral oils are currently so much cheaper than synthetic oils because there is still so much petroleum, and extracting processes in bulk are well evolved and cheap.

In normal circumstances the price (not cost) of any finite natural resource (+ cost of extraction and finishing) is mainly dependent on how abundant that natural resource is. Versus a manmade substitute that over time and with economy of scale will always be eventually cheaper. Because you can keep making it infinitely.

Current petroleum and lube manufacturers are milking the "synthetic" tag. Take it for what it is.

Cheers, Doc

[Sam800]

Originally Posted by ebonho

How long it maintains those same property standards is where the difference lies. Important caveat.

Cheers, Doc

This. This line pretty much sums up the argument between Mineral, SS, FS oils. Now companies are also promoting premium semi synthetic and premium mineral oils which are supposed to be better than non premium ones.

I agree with you strongly. Best quality mineral oil will be atleast as good as synthetic oil.

[anjan_c2007]

As clarified by many, I too believe that for old technology engines we need to stick to conventional lubricants. The newer cars and bikes have mentions regarding usage of synthetic and semi-synthetic oils in their owners manuals. The point is if there's no sizeable improvement in the engine's performance, why pay huge premiums and buy such products?

Oh yes, good quality mineral oils from reputed manufacturers (they are mostly MNC's), excluding the brands marketed by PSU oil companies surely make a difference for the older technology engines. These good, non synthetic oils improve performance and also the engine life. For such oils the most important of all is the constancy of its viscosity at higher operating temperatures where cheaper oils go astray and the ensuing friction between engine components turns damaging in the long run. But there are duplicates aplenty of the MNC oil brands that are plentifully available in the market. A veteran who has been in this business since decades had told me that even he was unsure as to whether some oil sold is genuine or not if brought to his notice ? He gave a hint that in case of recycled oils, sediments gather at the engine block base during use. But the gremlin can only be detected during oil change, when the oil drain bolt is loosened and there are impediments that prevent it seamless draining. Hence, purchases of genuine, branded oils need to be made only from reputed oil dealers.

[SidharthaN]

Not sure if the OP has read through so much gyan provided. My two bits and experience of 1,32,000 kms on my UCE Thunderbird 2015 model. The synthetic and synthetic base oils make the old UCE block run smoother and with less vibrations as compared to mineral oil. Also the same conditions last from 0kms - 4000kms which typically can be the drain interval. Not sure if the OP is planning to use the same on J series which I think is the case , considering the post.

[cefiljoseph]

Have a classic 500 at home. We don't risk it and get the oil changed using semi-synthetic oil from RE itself. Always prioritise minimising the risk over a potential performance improvement.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by cefiljoseph

Have a classic 500 at home. We don't risk it and get the oil changed using semi-synthetic oil from RE itself. Always prioritise minimising the risk over a potential performance improvement.

Absolutely. Although we see some personal observations on noise and vibration, which can not be verified, I don’t see anybody opening up their engine, measuring wear or getting an oil sample analysed.

Whereas I can think of technical reasons your engine would run smoother on synthetic whilst cold, there really is not any reason why it would run smoother whilst at normal operating temperature.

I doubt very much if we would set up a blind test, anybody could distinguish an engine running on synthetic versus running on mineral/semi synthetic oil.

Jeroen

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Stay with whatever Royal Enfield recommends. They have far more experience than the internet self proclaimed oil gurus.

Also, the internet although extremely outspoken on what oil to use, tends to have no research fasciliteert, speaks at best from personal experience and certainly won’t be available to help out if you suffer engine damage or additional wear due to a using a non manufacturer recommended oil.

If RE wants you to use a synthetic oil, it will specify which oil and when. Life is that simple!

Jeroen

Thanks. I see your point, but there is also the other side to consider. Manufacturers keep costs in mind too. That means they will go with a reasonable quality oil that doesn't cost too much.
I assume also that they keep an average rider in mind. In this case, that means someone who rides quite a bit in the city as this is not built as a touring bike. My plan is to mostly use this for long distance touring, hence my interest in possibly going for the best quality oils that maximises performance and enhance the service life of the engine.
Even the owner manuals indicate a minimum quality grade and don't say anything about going over that.
I am interested in exploring the option of synthetics because I will likely keep the Std 350 for years to come.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by Roy.S

Never. Stick to what RE recommends. As Jeroen said, they know best.
Those simple pushrod engines will not benefit from fully synthetic oils. Your money is better spent on riding gear.

Well, I don't know. I certainly used to be the case with the old CI engines.
But now there is a balancer shaft, much tighter tolerances, likely sophisticated piston and rings tech, and the engine is now air+oil cooled.
Since I plan to use this mostly for touring (mostly in moderate to hot climes), I want to see if shifting to synthetics might not result in a long service life for the engine.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by MT_Hyderabad

There are three kind of vehicle owners in this world.

1. Those who don't read the manual and doesnt care much about vehicles, though they do an annual service at any FNG.

2. Those who read the manual and follow service schedules as per the recommendations, even after the free service and warranty is over. They prefer ASC for services.

3. Those who read the manual and want to surpass the quality standards mentioned in the manual, like using performance air filters, oil filters, FS oils, iridium spark plugs, upgrade tyres, add fuel additives and what not.

In my opinion, the latter you are on this list, more is the probability of you having a peaceful and mutually beneficial relationship with the vehicle.

I fall somewhere between 2 and 3 : )
There was a time when I would easily have been type 3, but now I am looking to not go overboard, and keep things to a reasonable middle ground. The idea is to focus on use scenarios and needs. Money saved from avoiding high tech stuff that may not even be of much use is easily spent in gear, and in travel expenses.

Now, someone in category 1 can surpass someone in category 3 by chance, like someone in category 3 used engine oil flush (which I am completely against) and blows up a seal and the one in category 1 ran a car for 20,000 miles on a single oil and didn't do a perceivable damage to the vehicle.

Interesting. Do elaborate on why you're against engine oil flush. I thought it's an interesting idea if it helps remove the last 10% or so of the remaining engine oil.
Wouldn't ensuring that all the oil being replaced is fresh lead to a longer service life of the engine?
Thanks!

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by Roy.S

I know that Mr. Jeroen has owned a CI Bullet when he lived in India. No idea if he tried to use fully synthetic oil but it would probably be a bad idea. I own a Classic 500 and once I had to use fully synthetic oil because we were in a state of semi lockdown and there was no other option. The only difference was that the bike felt marginally quieter but there wasn't any improvement otherwise. These ancient engines just don't benefit from the expensive fully synthetic oils or any type of additive. Its akin to casting pearls at a swine.
OP asked a specific set of questions and some of them were answered. Perhaps the answers were not what was expected but not everything needs discussion and pontification.
I do use fully synthetic in my cars (Swift and I20) and the difference is palpable. I think higher end cars come filled with fully synthetic from the factory. I could be wrong here, though.

I can vouch for that too. I used Shell synthetic in 2 successive CI 350 Bullets around 2005.
It was an overkill and unnecessary. Like you I realised that the engines weren't going to benefit as much as one of the latest engines. The CI engine were simple and reliable designs built in to the 1940s, and could run on basic oils. Once I figured that out, I just got the basic Shell oils and changed them as per recommended intervals.
But now, it looks to me that the situation has changed quite a bit. RE has taken to high tech, closer manufacturing tolerances etc., and I am wondering if now may not be the time to actually use synthetic oils. Here my primary aim is to enhance the service life of the engine.
Thanks.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by MT_Hyderabad

I think I have contributed to the thread sufficiently enough and kept it to the point. If I continue with our discussion, it would be considered spamming.

Let us get back to the original question from the OP. The owner's manual recommends only Royal Enfield oil. If we go by the manual, no other oil can be used; completely disregarding Competetion Act 2002. They have all the right to charge exorbitant pricing from the consumers who are left with no other option. Let this be taken up by oil companies with them. RE can easily counter by saying that it is just a recommendation and not a mandate!

OP's bike is married to the RE oil, no exploring, no outside food for him.

I had missed this earlier, so thanks for bringing this to our attention.
This is fairly absurd and I had assumed that like most manufacturers they will specify the minimum grade of oil, rather than indicate that we should only buy RE oils.

No points for guessing that like so many companies today, this is likely a tactic to increase revenue.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by rakesh_r

Have had two Enfields, a classic 500 and a Himalayan. My experience, the bike was quite happy with semi synthetic RE recommended grade specs, nothing more nothing less.

Thanks. Were these bikes used mostly for city rides, or on the highway at speeds above 80 kmph (full load)? I imagine there will be a significant difference between these riding scenarios. The highest quality oils may attenuate engine wear and smoothness here.

[hserus]

A well formulated rather than cheap knockoff mineral, semi synthetic or synthetic of the same rating will perform just as well - with the obvious caveat of longer drain intervals for synthetics.

Whether or not it is worth the money to pour a top of the line PAO fully synthetic with extensive additive chemistry to a basic mineral oil is a matter of eating basmati versus ration rice. Other than a matter of better taste both have much the same nutrition value and calories.

With a 8.9 litre oil sump in my Endeavour, I’ve tried an expensive fully synthetic like castrol edge once. Ran very smoothly and lasted 15k km. I’ve also poured a well formulated CK4 mineral oil from Castrol, the engine runs quite smooth for what, 6-7k km at maybe a third of the cost. Higher HTHS means the high torque diesel engine in the Endeavour actually performs better than if I pour the Ford standard 5w30 a5b5 they use for everything from the Figo to the Endeavour.

Remember that an OEM oil choice can just be dictated by not having to maintain an inventory of different oils for different car models, and the manual and even more so, service manuals, manuals in other countries, or for trucks rather than SUVs but with the same engine can specify completely different weights and grades. Everything from 0w20 to 10w30 for example.

Also Jeroen, used oil analysis for a car or SUV oil fill? Far more expensive than just dumping the old oil and filling new oil, perhaps a little earlier to be on the cautious side. Far cheaper than doing a lab analysis. Marine or industrial diesels, commercial truck fleets etc that use hundreds of litres of oil might benefit from a UOA, but a personal car just might not be worth the expense of getting one.

[2wheelsvaga]

Originally Posted by hserus

API SL isn’t as relevant as the JASO MA for a wet clutch bike’s oil. There is no mention of fully or semi synthetic, or mineral here. As long as you use a 15w50 oil compatible with JASO MA or successor specification, you should be fine. It is perfectly fine to have API SL for the higher phosphorus content in the oil (.1% rather than .08 or lower for successor specifications) given the vintage of this particular engine. And yes a Xw50 oil, whether that is 10,15 or 20 at the lower end of this range is only going to matter if the bike is taken to somewhere the temperature falls below -20 or so C.

There is no manufacturer specific spec here like BMW, Ford or many other manufacturers have for there to be any significant change or difference from using one brand or the other that matches an industry wide spec for wet clutch motorcycles.

Thanks for sharing some of these technical details. If I may ask, will using a top synthetic oil such as Motul or Shell Ultra make a significant different to the service life of the engine, and fuel efficiency?

It is interesting that RE's own oil is semi-synthetic but of a high quality with additives designed to provide a 1 year oil change interval. How much of an improvement, and in which areas, should one expect to see by shifting over to the top synthetic oils?

The ride scenario I have in mind is mostly highway touring at full load and speeds of 80-90 kmph in mild to hot climes.

Thanks.