[Merc_lover666]

Guys...I am trying to restore a 1967 W110 Fintail 200 LHD by doing a complete dismantling and then doing a complete ground up restoration job, with improvements like Power brakes, Power steering, Air Conditioner, Upgraded Alternator to 90 Amperes to bear the load of the Air Conditioner. I need to know the worth of a fully restored car of such type. I need to understand if the kind of funds I am going to be employing are justified or not?

[FINTAIL]

Originally Posted by Merc_lover666

Guys...I am trying to restore a 1967 W110 Fintail 200 LHD by doing a complete dismantling and then doing a complete ground up restoration job, with improvements like Power brakes, Power steering, Air Conditioner, Upgraded Alternator to 90 Amperes to bear the load of the Air Conditioner. I need to know the worth of a fully restored car of such type. I need to understand if the kind of funds I am going to be employing are justified or not?

If you're restoring a classic, remember one thing-

"Forget the amount of money going into it." It will never be worth it financially.

And for such a retro modded (utter nonsense, I say!) expect a max of 5 lakhs. Finding buyers who are passionate, and will care about the car is another thing.

Somehow, it is all worth it, in the end, no?

[Merc_lover666]

Hi Finatail

1. By Utter Nonsense...you mean it is not a worthy car to restore?

2. What sort of a budget according to you is required to do a grounds up restoration job on a car like this which needs complete bodywork, engine overhaul, complete interior job etc.

3. Are there any 6 cylinder Fintail's available for sale in the market and if you may be able to guide me to something interesting??

The reason for me to ask these questions is that whether I should proceed with this car or look for something else.

[the mole]

Originally Posted by Merc_lover666

Hi Finatail

1. By Utter Nonsense...you mean it is not a worthy car to restore?

2. What sort of a budget according to you is required to do a grounds up restoration job on a car like this which needs complete bodywork, engine overhaul, complete interior job etc.

3. Are there any 6 cylinder Fintail's available for sale in the market and if you may be able to guide me to something interesting??

The reason for me to ask these questions is that whether I should proceed with this car or look for something else.

When you restore a vintage or classic car lets be clear, it's not really an investment! At best its a hobby which creates another alternate asset class. When you go to sell your car you will find that you will always get less than what you've paid or spent on it! But that should not be a deterrent to enjoy this lovely hobby.
Firstly the car you have is a very nice restorable Mercedes, increasingly being appreciated by classic car collectors and Mercedes afficiandos in India and abroad. If I were you I would look at my own pocket and then do as much justice as possible to the project within the allocated financial resources. Do lots and lots of research talk to experts on the forum and in your area and I am sure you'll soon figure out the right price to put into the car. Best of Luck

[FINTAIL]

Originally Posted by Merc_lover666

Hi Finatail

1. By Utter Nonsense...you mean it is not a worthy car to restore?

2. What sort of a budget according to you is required to do a grounds up restoration job on a car like this which needs complete bodywork, engine overhaul, complete interior job etc.

3. Are there any 6 cylinder Fintail's available for sale in the market and if you may be able to guide me to something interesting??

The reason for me to ask these questions is that whether I should proceed with this car or look for something else.

An original car from Delhi. History please! LHD too, a good car, I cannot deny it!

Is the original OM621 present, or is this one running on an OM616?

In this case, a little perseverance will be required. One look at the roof and one thing is evident. Some good tinkering is required here.

For a ground up restoration- Well, as Amol puts it, in a classic car restoration, you can never expect it to appeal to the mind. The heart wins here.

If you ask me, cap the budget at 4 big ones. Something tells be, this might get blown.

The Utter nonsense part- I feel you should enjoy a classic in its most original form possible. All this fitting an air conditioner, a better engine et cetera- Total nonsense IMO.

As regards to the six cylinder Heckflosses aka the W111, I really do not know. Looking for one since ages. Most were dieselised.

As Haritji puts it, "Your first classic should be a one you can drive daily". Of course, Fintails can be driven a little too much, no?

An excellent onboard video of the W111- It really seems quite similar to a Fiat 1100, driving experience wise. Note how the colour of the meter changes, while in motion. Yellow to red. Really love the enginnering of that era.

Research in motion. Personified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qTlf1RMRVQ

[Merc_lover666]

Many many thanks to The Mole and Fintail for sharing your thoughts in such an honest and upfront manner, it is really helping a novice like me to get a good understanding and a clearer perspective on how to get things moving ahead.

Have made up my mind will not be doing any mods like the power steering, updated brakes or the air conditioner etc. However will be sparing no expense to restore the car to as near as possible to original stock condition when she was minted new. Needless to say the budget will definitely shoot up to much more than 5 or even 7 but I am really looking to do things in the best way possible.

Please find some pictures attached that show current ongoing progress, will be sharing updates from time to time and would be requesting more help from all you kind souls, believe me the clarity of thought that I am receiving by getting all this feedback is invaluable.

[FINTAIL]

Originally Posted by Merc_lover666

Please find some pictures attached that show current ongoing progress, will be sharing updates from time to time and would be requesting more help from all you kind souls, believe me the clarity of thought that I am receiving by getting all this feedback is invaluable.

The De Dion rear suspension, is simply a piece of art, no?

The French sure knew how to do things! This, on a German car. Globalisation personified!

[Merc_lover666]

Googled "De Dion" In the process got lots of more information about the design and working of this type of a set up. Just sharing with all:

The de Dion tube was named after Comte Jules-Albert de Dion, founder of French automobile manufacturer De Dion-Bouton. The tube, however, was invented around 1894 by co-founder Charles Trépardoux for use on the company's steam tricycles.[3]

Advantages and disadvantages
Advantages

Reduced unsprung weight compared to the Hotchkiss drive (live axle), since the differential and half-shafts are connected to the chassis.
Unlike most fully independent suspension there are no camber changes on axle loading and unloading (or rebound). Fixing the camber of both wheels at 0° assists in obtaining good traction from wide tires and also tends to reduce wheel hop under high power operations compared to an independent suspension.
The choice of shock absorbers and springs is made easier.[2]
The two wheels may be individually aligned, allowing for independent camber (vertical) and track (horizontal) alignment.

Disadvantages:

A pair of CV or universal joints are required for each wheel, adding complexity, cost, and weight.[2]
If coil springs are used then a lateral location link (usually either a Panhard rod or Watt's linkage), plus additional torque links on each side (five link suspension) or a combination of lower trailing links and an upper transverse wishbone are required. None of these additional links are required if leaf springs are used, but ride can be compromised due to the leaves having to do double duty as both locating links and springs.
Sympathetic camber changes on opposite wheels are seen on single-wheel suspension compression, just as in a Hotchkiss drive or live axle. This is not important for operation on improved surfaces but is more critical for rough road or off road use.

WoW...Big thanks to this forum...every day and every hour I am learning more, the more I learn, the more I know about my car....SORRY UB40!!!

[karlosdeville]

Originally Posted by Merc_lover666

Guys...I am trying to restore a 1967 W110 Fintail 200 LHD by doing a complete dismantling and then doing a complete ground up restoration job, with improvements like Power brakes, Power steering, Air Conditioner, Upgraded Alternator to 90 Amperes to bear the load of the Air Conditioner. I need to know the worth of a fully restored car of such type. I need to understand if the kind of funds I am going to be employing are justified or not?

Hi Merc_lover - congratulations on your project. These Mercedes should be lovely, enjoyable cars that you can use regularly once restored, so you are off to the right start. Parts are available straightforward if you import, but can obviously be expensive. I'm sure the mole and mbz180 can give you leads on reliable parts suppliers.

In the pictures you posted there are many classics around, so I assume your workshop is competent to tackle an older car. Have you taken a detailed estimate for ALL the work involved? Better to have an idea of what you will end up spending now rather than getting demotivated half way through.

Originally Posted by FINTAIL

And for such a retro modded (utter nonsense, I say!) expect a max of 5 lakhs.

I don't follow what you mean by utter nonsense, but a few sensible upgrades are always welcome. I can't say I have any experience with Mercedes, but for a Fintail it should already be quite reliable and refined. If your restorers are competent enough, an AC would make you use the car more often of course, which is always a good thing. I doubt you will miss power steering once you are used to driving the car regularly.

I also can't comment with much authority on pricing, but I am sure a well restored Fintail needing no work will fetch a bit more.

Good luck with the project and keep us posted.

[drjoepaulp]

Hi,Congrats on your new project am sure you will enjoy the restoration....I have restored a '63 fintail 190d....its a good challenge and a great car to drive.

[vinay kamath]

Originally Posted by Merc_lover666

Hi Finatail

1. By Utter Nonsense...you mean it is not a worthy car to restore?

2. What sort of a budget according to you is required to do a grounds up restoration job on a car like this which needs complete bodywork, engine overhaul, complete interior job etc.

3. Are there any 6 cylinder Fintail's available for sale in the market and if you may be able to guide me to something interesting??

The reason for me to ask these questions is that whether I should proceed with this car or look for something else.

Sir, check this out !

http://chennai.olx.in/vintage-merced...-iid-740374655

[JayD]

Originally Posted by vinay kamath

Sir, check this out !

http://chennai.olx.in/vintage-merced...-iid-740374655

It sure looks mint in the pics, but in person its very apparent that its hiding a lot of work. It needs a complete strip down grounds up resto to make it presentable, let alone show quality. NO comments on the price though

[mbz180]

Originally Posted by Merc_lover666

Hi Finatail

1. By Utter Nonsense...you mean it is not a worthy car to restore?

The reason for me to ask these questions is that whether I should proceed with this car or look for something else.

Wow, fast worK Merc_lover666 and the results look good! Btw, when the car is sorted, you'll realize that power steering is not required at all, the steering is fairly light.

Originally Posted by FINTAIL

An original car from Delhi. History please! LHD too, a good car, I cannot deny it!

The Utter nonsense part- I feel you should enjoy a classic in its most original form possible. All this fitting an air conditioner, a better engine et cetera- Total nonsense IMO.

An excellent onboard video of the W111- It really seems quite similar to a Fiat 1100, driving experience wise. Note how the colour of the meter changes, while in motion. Yellow to red. Really love the engineering of that era.

FINTAIL, I know you are talking generally but Merc_lover666 didn't go to the extreme of saying he wants a better engine, but an air conditioner, if installed correctly, would be good on a Heckflosse. They were an original DB option in any case on Heckflosse cars.

"Seems quite similar" is correct! No offense to the many Fiat lovers here (I myself own a Fiat), but I have driven a 220Sb (W111) a number of times and I can tell you that it's like a locomotive of a car; nothing throws it out of balance. The car gives the driver a feeling (can't quite put it in words) like it's running on rail tracks, it's that stable! So that's the driving experience. And with standard power brakes, hydraulic clutch, a fairly powerful, torquey and refined engine, you can get a little sporty too

Originally Posted by Merc_lover666

However will be sparing no expense to restore the car to as near as possible to original stock condition when she was minted new. Needless to say the budget will definitely shoot up to much more than 5 or even 7 but I am really looking to do things in the best way possible.

That's a realistic budget you've set, judging by the photos you've posted. Should you require contact info for sourcing parts from abroad, please don't hesitate to pm me, I'll try and help as much as I can.

Originally Posted by FINTAIL

The De Dion rear suspension, is simply a piece of art, no?

The French sure knew how to do things! This, on a German car. Globalisation personified!

FINTAIL, apart from De Dion Bouton's contribution to the famous rear axle setup they also contributed substantially in another area. A lot of car marques in Europe & the US who became famous long after De Dion packed up started off by using De Dion engines since their own engines were too crude. De Dion engines were widely used under license by other manufacturers as they were refined and reliable. An example of such a company is Daimler (not Daimler Benz) whose first models used De Dion engines. Another pioneering French marque was Panhard et Levassor. They are credited with developing the widely used setup in most cars i.e. radiator, engine, gearbox, driveshaft and axle, in that order.

Originally Posted by Merc_lover666

Googled "De Dion" In the process got lots of more information about the design and working of this type of a set up. Just sharing with all:

If coil springs are used then a lateral location link (usually either a Panhard rod or Watt's linkage), plus additional torque links on each side (five link suspension) or a combination of lower trailing links and an upper transverse wishbone are required. None of these additional links are required if leaf springs are used, but ride can be compromised due to the leaves having to do double duty as both locating links and springs.

Merc-lover-There was an upgrade in the Fintail over the preceding Ponton generation which is clearly visible in your differential's photo-the addition of a transverse (horizontal) coil spring. Though the Ponton setup was generally reliable, sudden drastic changes in direction at high speed occasionally resulted in the car to fishtail. The 300SL Gullwing and the early Pontons which had double pivot axles were more prone to this. DB then switched to single pivot axles in Pontons from (late?) 1956 and in the 300SL Roadsters to address this. In the Fintails, they added a transverse spring to further correct this tendency for the rear to swing out, probably one of the reasons why you get the feel of the car being on tracks rather than on the road.

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Hi Merc_lover - congratulations on your project. Parts are available straightforward if you import, but can obviously be expensive. I'm sure the mole and mbz180 can give you leads on reliable parts suppliers.

Have you taken a detailed estimate for ALL the work involved? Better to have an idea of what you will end up spending now rather than getting demotivated half way through.

karlosdeville is correct, you'll get all parts required though a lot will be expensive. Your stated budget however should take care of things nicely

Like I said, please get in touch should you require the contact info for parts sources and I'll be glad to help and many congratulations on a lovely project and wish you the best!

mbz180

[Merc_lover666]

Hey mbz180 great to hear from you, in fact I had been reading the whole history of your restoration project, the whole of last week and understood very clearly the level of patience and expertise needed to execute such a project, therefore have entrusted the entire restoration job to Mr. Tutu Dhawan in New Delhi.

After visiting his workshops in New Delhi and Gurgaon I really got a feeling that this is the best person to whom I can entrust this project as to be very honest I really cannot find the time on a daily basis to go hunting for parts on the net and follow up with all the work being carried out on the car on a day to day basis. Nor do I have the sort of knowledge that is required to undertake a project of this magnitude.

Really very very kind of you to lend such generous support and believe me it is deeply appreciated. I would really like the pleasure of meeting you in person sometime may be if I visit Kolkata or if you are in Mumbai...Cheers!

[vinay kamath]

a w110 in despair , now for sale. could she be a parts car for your project?

http://bangalore.olx.in/mercedes-benz-iid-755687304