[lurker]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Under what law or which principles of natural justice? I'm afraid this suggestion does NOT stand up to reason. Can we kindly get back on topic?

To deter mob mentality and create fear of law, and that being in a mob does not mean escape from justice. Many of the bikers riding without licence plates or even a DL. And if they escape punishment, they will repeat this offence in another situation and then they will also be careful not to leave a trail of any video evidence which could be used against them.

What the judicial system there is trying to do is to make one guy a scapegoat and claim 'justice was done'. He was not alone and whatever crime he was upto the whole group was giving tacit acknowledgement.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by Ford5

What I would not do is floor the accelerator in the hopes of being a hero.

Did anyone go and check if 30 people had knifes on them? Why assume things and be the jury?

Kid in the back seat? How is someone supposed to see that with dark tints?

Are people suggesting Lien wife and baby would be cut up into pieces in broad daylight??.

1) If you're going to assume that Lien was trying to be a hero, then I'm going to assume that the car was under attack by 30 knife-wielding people on bikes.

2) So you're saying that the kid couldn't be noticed through tinted windows. Then how did the good-samaritans notice them? And do you think a kid would stay quiet when the car and his/her parents are under attack?

3) I'm suggesting that with 30 angry people on the verge of assaulting a family, anything could have been possible.

Originally Posted by Ford5

Lien could have attracted attention by honking. Putting the hazard lights on. Or as someone said calling 911 (which lien did but to no avail) like the bikers should have done (while lien would supposedly wait) & Sitting tight for half a minute until the public came to his rescue?

What does he do? Drives over "people" TWICE.

The video is ample proof that bikers merely stood by the car. And for Lien to react in that way it would amount the bikers to try and roll over the suv or jump on top of his suv to make apparent their "threat" & "intention" of cutting up Lien and his family.

Was there any such reaction after the supposed brake check? NO..

The video is also ample proof that the bikers were riding like hooligans before and after the incident. They showed nil respect for the law and other road users.

The only remotely-valid argument you have is the Range Rover running over the biker, and you continue to beat it to death while conveniently leaving out the other facts of the case. This selective briefing of facts makes this whole argument seem utterly redundant. And as far as I'm concerned, we've hit a brick wall.

Good bye for now and see you 'round the forum.

[Ford5]

Remotely valid argument? Even i'd like to think that way, but then it would be "selective briefing" of facts.

[aah78]

Originally Posted by Ford5

What I would not do is floor the accelerator in the hopes of being a hero.
.
.
.

You are arguing here purely for the sake of argument and without any basis for those arguments.

I'm no lawyer. Neither do I think that anyone was trying to be a hero here, nor am I saying what Lien or the bikers should or should not have done - they did what they had to, what they felt was correct.

But as you've been consistently pushing here that the bikers involved are model citizens, that they have been victimized and you seem to understand their mentality and want to portray their innocent side - here's a simple question for you - why didn't they stop, pull over to the side of the road and wait for the police to come and make a report of the accident?

I had asked a similar question in my earlier post to phamilyman, who sides with your persistence of the bikers innocence - that was ignored but I'm convinced you have the answer.

[Obviously they should have known (or rather not in this case) that braking hard in front of a moving SUV will probably lead to one of them being hurt (run over in the worst case) whether the SUV braked, or not. Worse if it did not. Bike vs SUV, not the best combination to test ones stupidity.]

When they probably had an idea that one of them might be hurt, why oh! why did the poor souls stop in the middle of the Henry Hudson Pkwy, block traffic and begin threatening the dangerous driver of the SUV?

He, who turned out to be a terrible monster, along-with with his evil offspringwho unleashed his terrible fury on them instead of honking to attract attention. [This is a ridiculously laughable comment under these specific circumstances - "he should have put on hazard lights, honked to attract attention".]

There was an off-duty cop in the midst of those bikers. He waited three days to reveal his version, edited. I guess he was the wise man here - I mean, who would take a chance with the driver of a monster mobile who runs people over for fun when their path is blocked.

[AbhishekB86]

Originally Posted by Ford5

The biker community would not tolerate wrong (color of skin apart). Im sure an apology would come across once JUSTICE is delivered.

Yes? Are you sure? Any chance you know any of those guys personally to be sure about a pending apology?


The 'biker community' has nothing to do with this case. 'Bikers' have nothing to do with it. You've taken this a long way and some of the posts reflect the angst against bikers being labelled as hooligans. Bikers in USA do not owe an apology to anyone.

If I can put this in a better way this is about 30 odd individuals vs a family. Unfortunately for you and those who might get offended easily they turned out to be on bikes.

Now Lien ran over them. Completely wrong. Not acceptable. But why? Who took out the knives? Who behaved like a mob? 30 odd people some of them with knives and it's funny you want Lien to reason with them or to back off. Back off where? Switch hazard lights for what? To warn oncoming traffic that he *may* or *may not* stabbed and they may want to change lanes?

Can you predict human nature? Can you assure me with full certainty that they would not have attacked his family? If the answer is not a certain yes then Lien making a run for it is in a way justified.


There's something called self defense. If you bother to go on youtube, there was a lady who dialled 911 in a unrelated case because people were trying to break into her house and she was alone with a toddler. She asked if it was okay to shoot and the operator said if they do manage to enter your house, you may. She shot the man dead and was not charged.

Why are you putting all the onus on Lien is something which is beyond me. I mean he was dealing with human beings wasn't he? They are mentally stable to make the distinction between right and wrong so why did they not act accordingly?

Lastly, had it not been for the people who intervened no one can say for certain how far the bikers would have pushed this.

As far as my previous posts go I do not recall calling you names. Nor am I touchy about this. More than anything I am amused by your actions. You accuse people of stereotyping bikers and you're calling everyone who opposes your views on this forum immature and fickle minded.

[SDP]

Update:

Another biker Craig Wright arrested. In some video-footage/photos, he was caught punching the RR driver through the smashed window.

Details at: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1478475

PS: There is some mention of "The gotcha video, taken with an iPad by a witness, also shows ..."

I had expressed my frustration about a bystander taking snaps/video on an iPad (rather than helping out). In hindsight, seems like the video has provided some concrete evidence of the attack and so in a way the bystander has actually helped.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Even assuming you're right about the SUV driver, how do you justify a bunch of adults attacking a 2-year old?

This is news. Can you kindly share the details. Most news reports seem to have omitted this part of the incident.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

This is news. Can you kindly share the details. Most news reports seem to have omitted this part of the incident.

The passenger side and rear windscreen of the SUV were also smashed, and there's at least one witness account that some bikers tried to drag the lady out of the SUV as well while she was trying to console the agitated child.

The pictures of the SUV are posted on the previous page. I think the 'endangering the welfare of a child' charge explains a lot. I can't begin to imagine what the child would've felt watching its parents intimidated and assaulted in its presence.

[SDP]

An account of what exactly happened - from an eyewitness (& good samaritan) Sergio Consuegra.

Please note that he mentions that when he saw the SUV approaching, he noticed one of the tyres was in bad-shape (actually gone). The original video is not clear about what exactly transpired immediately after the RR bumped Cruz's bike and was surrounded by a bunch of bikers. The tyre-in-bad-shape mention from the eye-witness gives some clues about what happened and why did Lien feel so threatened and decided to flee the scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoHEgz5-tUA

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

The passenger side and rear windscreen of the SUV were also smashed, and there's at least one witness account that some bikers tried to drag the lady out of the SUV as well while she was trying to console the agitated child.

The pictures of the SUV are posted on the previous page. I think the 'endangering the welfare of a child' charge explains a lot. I can't begin to imagine what the child would've felt watching its parents intimidated and assaulted in its presence.

Chetan,

None of that constitutes attacking a two year old, which is indeed a heinous act if it did happen. This thread is charged up as it is - it doesn't need more unsubstantiated angles.

As for the last underlined part, that gets into the "how could it have been avoided" territory, which is yet another slippery slope of "in a law abiding country, why should Lien back off?" (as duly expressed by bblost among others). Again, better not to go there.

[jraj]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Chetan,

None of that constitutes attacking a two year old, which is indeed a heinous act if it did happen. This thread is charged up as it is - it doesn't need more unsubstantiated angles.

Wow, seriously???

When the bikers are causing that kind of damage to the RR, their only intention is to harm the passengers inside and that includes a lady and a 2 year old kid.

Thats how everyone sees it and thats how even NYPD saw it.How difficult is it to understand that?

[SDP]

Update:

Two more bikers (Wojciech Braszczok and Clinton Caldwell) have been arrested, one of them being one of the undercover cops riding with the bikers.

Source:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/...-due-in-court/

[amit]

Originally Posted by E63

Wasnt that what was happening until suddenly the RR guy decided, out of nowhere, to accelerate and run over the now paralyzed.

That's not what various news reports and versions are saying. You are saying the biker's were waiting by the side of the road and had called 911? Where are the details of those call records? The authorities have confirmed that Lien did call 911 but none of the biker's did. And who slashed the tyres of the SUV? I don't know why you are under the impression that the biker's waited at the side and the SUV suddenly without provocation decided to run them over! If what you say is right and the biker's were parked at the side how did they get run over?

[Maverick5490]

Originally Posted by SDP

An account of what exactly happened - from an eyewitness (& good samaritan) Sergio Consuegra.

Please note that he mentions that when he saw the SUV approaching, he noticed one of the tyres was in bad-shape (actually gone). The original video is not clear about what exactly transpired immediately after the RR bumped Cruz's bike and was surrounded by a bunch of bikers. The tyre-in-bad-shape mention from the eye-witness gives some clues about what happened and why did Lien feel so threatened and decided to flee the scene.

Thanks for the update SDP, I did highlight this a few posts back, the front LHS tyre looks damaged/flat and so does the LHS mirror (No mirror lens). It does look like the attack on Lien's RR started much earlier which would make it rightful for him to flee the scene.

[SDP]

Originally Posted by Maverick5490

Thanks for the update SDP, I did highlight this a few posts back, the front LHS tyre looks damaged/flat and so does the LHS mirror (No mirror lens). It does look like the attack on Lien's RR started much earlier which would make it rightful for him to flee the scene.

Maverick, the attack did start when the RR stopped for the first time.
But front-LHS is not the tyre that the eye-witness is talking about.
Reattaching the picture of the RR after the attack:


There is no tyre on the front-right wheel and I don't believe it came off on its own as a consequence of the bikers just staring at the RR.