SUVs safer than sedans? Edit: evironmental impact discussions too

[Sawyer]

I endorse fully all that Devdath has pointed out, so I will not repeat it all here except to say just that I do.
And to point out that the claimed advantage of height driven longer horizon will vanish the moment everyone else is in a SUV. At which time, I suppose the ones who can afford them will look for even bigger and even taller vehicles?!!
And I have no social issue with a SUV that is driven around with every seat full. So the argument is mostly against the private number plated ones that are driven largely empty.
The overall argument for the things seems to be - we have the cash, we gonna buy it, to hell with any civic obligations.
Shankar Balan has sent me a truly horrifying report of the road situation in Delhi, maybe he needs to post it here.

[shankar.balan]

actually that link i sent you is a general essay by rana dasgupta -

hard hitting essay - mind-numbing-ly, gut-wrenching-ly, skin-burning-ly true of today's real life -almost unable to figure where reel life ends and real life begins in the truly "big" cities of india like NCR/ Mumbai.

here's the link for those of you who want to read it
whatever else it does, it will make you think and introspect a bit

1 | Capital Gains | Granta 107 | Magazine | Granta Magazine

cheers

Originally Posted by Sawyer

I endorse fully all that Devdath has pointed out, so I will not repeat it all here except to say just that I do.
And to point out that the claimed advantage of height driven longer horizon will vanish the moment everyone else is in a SUV. At which time, I suppose the ones who can afford them will look for even bigger and even taller vehicles?!!
And I have no social issue with a SUV that is driven around with every seat full. So the argument is mostly against the private number plated ones that are driven largely empty.
The overall argument for the things seems to be - we have the cash, we gonna buy it, to hell with any civic obligations.
Shankar Balan has sent me a truly horrifying report of the road situation in Delhi, maybe he needs to post it here.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

That is exactly the belief behind being socially responsible and understanding the fact than using more than one's due share of anything, ultimately leads to rat race and spoils the entire lot.

I am eager to see how SUVs spoil *the entire lot*. An exagerration at best. Again, I reiterate that anyone is free to buy whatever car they need or want. To each his own.

Does every Porsche 911 owner cruise down the freeway at 300 kph? No. Less than 1% of Ferrari owners are drivers good enough to exploit even 70% of their car's handling capability. Then why are all SUV owners *expected* to use their 4x4?

Still a valid point.

SUV=Gas Guzzler, wrong but SUV=more often than not- Unwanted Gas Guzzler, right. How many people do usually ferry around? SUVs with a single driver and his/her laptop in the rear seat is a common scene across all metros in the country.

So are the equal gas guzzlers that I have listed (and then, some more), starting with the Accord V6, E350, S500 etc. etc. I don't remember seeing any BMW 7 series with more than one CEO on the back seat.

The focus is on more afforable SUVs which are replacing sedans in cities, in the B(read entry mid level) and B+

Ah, affordable SUVs. The Mahindra Scorpio gives 9.9 in the city and 13 on the highway, the Sumo Grande 9.7 and a similar 13ish on the highway, the Bolero DI 12.1 and 14.5, while the Tata Safari 9.4 & 12.7.

What part of these affordable SUVs FE looks like a guzzler to you?

P.S. : Just as an example : Each of these are more FE than your Daewoo Cielo. Plus, why is it that you ride a relatively less efficient Enfield Bullet, when a 100cc Hero Honda could do the same job just as well, and with way superior fuel efficiency? I think we know the answer.

Havent puny looking Marutis withstood the same and probably worse roads all these decades and come out unscathed? A few scratches, yes but dependablity-100%. All of us know it.

Even Bajaj Scooters have. What's the point? The statement I made earlier stands as a fact : SUVs & MUVS - especially the ladder frame type - are able to take a lot more abuse.

If we are to go by your line of thought, that puny little 800 can do a 100 kph (which is the max speed limit in India), seat 5 passengers, is a nippy handler and has awesome reliability ratings. Why do we need to buy larger, safer and lesser efficient cars at all then! Let's all of us restrict ourselves to 800s and Nanos exclusively.

To a certain extent, yes but what about rollovers, slippery roads and most of all, the safety of the other vehicle (if it a pedestrian a 2 wheeler or a smaller car) that you bang into?

A pro & a con to every situation. I have myself posted about the SUV / MUV handling disadvantage a couple of pages back.

Completely agreed, buy an SUV and use it at a town where the roads are bad, there isnt much traffic

Again, to each his own. While I am not going to buy an SUV for urban use, and do use my Jeep exactly what she was built for, I'm certainly not going to point a finger at an urban SUV owner. Big deal, let him use it the way he is happy to.

Since we do not want to travel light(though we need to change), we buy a bigger car, wow, see, that is the same tune coming again like the Americans. We want it, we will buy it.

I don't see where the similarity with Americans comes up. But yes, when I am on a road trip, its most probably with a large group. And no, there isn't a *wow* factor either. If you want any confirmation of our baggage habits, just ask anyone of your friends who have experience in international airlines. Indians do NOT travel light and that's a fact. Its a lifestyle thing.

And to point out that the claimed advantage of height driven longer horizon will vanish the moment everyone else is in a SUV. At which time, I suppose the ones who can afford them will look for even bigger and even taller vehicles?!!

Sawyer, lets not debate hypothetically. Is everyone else on the highway in an SUV?

[amitoj]

Yapppaaa!! You all seem intent on taking the fun out of being an automotive enthusiast!! Ok ok i will send out positive thoughts from my mind before i get into my 10 kmpl car (notice its a car, not an SUV). Happy now?

In India there are still issues bigger than the social advantages/disadvantages of owning an SUV. And given the spineless law enforcement authorities, one is left with no choice but to take guard on your own. If driving a bigger vehicle gives more safety, then so be it! Those who feel they are doing grave injustice to society by driving a bigger vehicle, can go spend a few hours at their local nearby ashram and balance the karma.

[Sn1p3r]

This is a never ending debate. Its similar to going green or not? Going organic or not?

As the learned scholars and our religion put it, this world will never ever have 100% satisfaction, peace, glory, agreement on anything. So, in the microcosm of our world, we shall do our best to maintain the peace and sanity of the macrocosm.

We all miss that neither man would have started eating vegetarian food, nor he would have cleared forest to cultivate, nor would have the CO2 gases started this vicious cycle of global warming

Disclaimer I am going Bollywood. Kindly excuse.

"Phir jaao phele sign le kar aao uss aadmi ka jisne global warming shuru ki phir mein sign karoonga"

And then the dialog continues "Bhai mere paas farmhouse hai, tractor hai, diesel hai, petrol hai, SUV hai, tumhare paas kya hai".

"Bhai mere paas hybrid Car hai"

The argument continues over coffee-toffee.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by GTO

Sawyer, lets not debate hypothetically. Is everyone else on the highway in an SUV?

God forbid. As it is, there isn't enough place for me to drive mine on, or park in. I hope that everyone's income never reaches the levels where he or she can afford one, so that my perch always remains lofty relative to theirs. On the other hand, the Government should build wider roads so that I can drive mine comfortably, carrying one/two people in a footprint that can accomodate 6-8 people, looking down at my fellow citizens, in their hatches and sedans, safe in the knowledge that in case there is an accident, my size will prevail.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by amitoj

And given the spineless law enforcement authorities, one is left with no choice but to take guard on your own. If driving a bigger vehicle gives more safety, then so be it! Those who feel they are doing grave injustice to society by driving a bigger vehicle, can go spend a few hours at their local nearby ashram and balance the karma.

As some one pointed out earlier, this logic takes us to owning guns. And then to automatic weapons, when the next guy has a gun - after all it is just a matter of having the cash for it, so here again bigger the better and safer. In the US, where people are a lot more polite to each other, guns are a major cause of death. In India, as we do with our vehicles to the road accident rate, if gun ownership was to be allowed to all who can afford one, we will write new chapters.
Btw, this is not an argument against UVs/MUVs - or even SUVs used in that mode, as clarified earlier.
And it is for each of us to decide how to effectively do justice to society, not for anyone else to prescribe. By our nature, we are not a people with a great sense of obligation to the communities we live in.
What I sense is that we are teetering on the edge of a precipice, unaware. If I am wrong, wonderful, the coming generation/s will have as great a life as I have been fortunate to have in India.

[raj_5004]

i think we should understand that every person has different needs from his vehicle.

now, i drive a scorpio but more often than not, i am terrorised by mumbai's fiat taxis & call centre's indicas. i would say then that these vehicles should be off the road. possible?

me and most of the member in my family are quite tall, so we wont fit in any sedan! even if the sedan is spacious, we have to crouch to get in & get out. an SUV makes that quite comfortable. i have no qualms in saying that most of the times, i am the only one in my scorpio. if you say, i am wasting fuel, i'll say- ban the BMWs, V6, merc and all high end premiuim cars as they are the biggest guzzlers in town.

so, no point in pinpointing at SUV owners. i have seen countless swift & honda citys who are driven as if they have to catch a flight to hell.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

As some one pointed out earlier, this logic takes us to owning guns. And then to automatic weapons, when the next guy has a gun - after all it is just a matter of having the cash for it, so here again bigger the better and safer. In the US, where people are a lot more polite to each other, guns are a major cause of death. In India, as we do with our vehicles to the road accident rate, if gun ownership was to be allowed to all who can afford one, we will write new chapters.
Btw, this is not an argument against UVs/MUVs - or even SUVs used in that mode, as clarified earlier.
And it is for each of us to decide how to effectively do justice to society, not for anyone else to prescribe. By our nature, we are not a people with a great sense of obligation to the communities we live in.
What I sense is that we are teetering on the edge of a precipice, unaware. If I am wrong, wonderful, the coming generation/s will have as great a life as I have been fortunate to have in India.

Sawyer, i wonder why you have such a cynical outlook of the society, and that too ours in particular. It is just an illusion that people in US are "more polite". They may say "sorry" or "thank you" more often than us, but they mean it a lot less than us. For them, saying these things is like batting an eyelid. Deep within, they are sometimes even more prejudiced and bigoted than an average indian. Once a friend of mine in US accidentally bumped into a red neck american and promptly got the reply, "My son is in Iraq". Wot the... ?

And lets not get into hypothetical scenarios of going from SUVs to guns. I've seen people in Santros bearing arms. So, there is no connection in reality between an SUV and a gun.

Let us look forward to the time when we have enough public transport that we can leave our vehicles home and travel to work in buses, trains or metros. That will keep everyone happy.

[freewheelburnin]

Sawyer , I appreciate your farsighted approach.But the part of the world where you live in may not need S.U.Vs.I live in Bangalore, the IT capital of India.I have owned a lancer earlier.It used to scrape on every blo**y speed breaker designed to break cars literally.A major part of the city roads are always under construction owing to metro work,fly overs etc which gets completed only in 4 to 5 years.Considering the fact that cars are not designed to run on this kind of landscape and me being a car lover would not like to see my car tortured.This is one of the reasons i wanted an S.U.V.I pay taxes in lakhs of ruppees being a hapless IT professional.But even the road where my apartment is situated is not tarred although there are thousands of IT employees paying millions of ruppees to the Tax coffers.If they cannot improve the infrastructure, the only way out is to move to a more posh residential area.In that way i would have to shell out another 40 lakhs or so which i cannot afford.But as a matter of fact i need a vehicle and do not mind spending another 2 lakhs more to get one which can take the bad roads better and transport us in comfort.If roads were decent enough i would have never bought an S.U.V.In India it is more of a necessity than a luxury.Here are my needs
1)Comfort on bad roads
2)Ground clearance should be good
3)Diesel(cheaper fuel)
4)Should not be very expensive to maintain.

Is any car available presently which can meet these needs?

[GTO]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

so that I can drive mine comfortably, carrying one/two people in a footprint that can accomodate 6-8 people,

On an enthusiast community that "lives to drive", with members who go out for a long spin just to enjoy their cars, that statement looks woefully out of place, doesn't it. After all, aren't we unnecessarily using a footprint - whatever the size - when we go out for a joy drive? It's easy to dismiss the "footprint" of an SUV as pointless, yet there are so many other pointless activities that we indulge in, as part of daily life.

And why target only SUVs? The housing problem in urban India is even more serious than that of congested roads. How many of us live in larger houses than we really need, just because we like / can afford to? What's next? 75 sq. ft. allocation for each person's bedroom?

Again, I reiterate, live & let live. People are free to use their cars in whatever way they want to, as long as it is within legal limits. Take a chill pill, dudes!

[amoghchaphalkar]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

so that I can drive mine comfortably, carrying one/two people in a footprint that can accomodate 6-8 people,

Going by that logic : All airlines should stop offering Business Class seats (in terms of space occupied : 3 economy seats = 1 business class seat)

I pay a premium to fly business class. I pay a premium to buy a SUV

It's my money and I use it to buy comfort. What's the problem ?

I thought this thread was about "Safety" and not about "Civic Sense"

['72 Bullet]

Hey all,

This thread is all about safety isn't it?

The Cars are safer than SUVs myth: Cars maybe safer than SUVs when it comes to dynamic stability, braking etc. but IMHO you're safest in a crash when safely cocooned within tons of metal.

The dynamic stabilty bit maybe true in American or European situations (high speeds, good roads adverse conditions like snow and ice) but when it comes to India, the conditions are very different, you're much safer in an SUV because the idiot in the next car or at the next crossing can see you better. Safer because you don't have to swerve or brake hard for every pot-hole and breaker and safer because in the eventuality of a crash, there's alot more metal between you and the impact.

of course, SUVs have their cons as well when it comes to safety. I do believe that all of these are in direct control of the driver. You have to know the limitations of your vehicle and drive safe no matter what - the perfect remedy for the lack in dynamic stability and tendency to roll-over and pedestrian safety isn't it?

on the other hand, it just isn't as safe driving in a sedan or hatch in India. In the city it's perfectly fine and actually very convenient, but once you're onto slightly faster roads the possibilty of someone else coming into you is very, very high. No matter how good a driver you are or if you're in the best car, if someone is really determined to smash into you, he will (as is pretty common on our roads). With conditions like these, which are just not in our control, being in an SUV has it's distinct advantages.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[KITE RUNNER]

Yes, SUVs' offer some sort of 'psychological safety'.

SUVs' r definitely unstable at very high speeds compared to a sedan in the same scenario.

An elephant ride may seem safe, but a fall can be disastrous.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by GTO

On an enthusiast community that "lives to drive", with members who go out for a long spin just to enjoy their cars, that statement looks woefully out of place, doesn't it. After all, aren't we unnecessarily using a footprint - whatever the size - when we go out for a joy drive? It's easy to dismiss the "footprint" of an SUV as pointless

After I posted my thoughts, I realized that they would not be welcome in a community such as this one, so I will not post on these lines anymore over here.
But I do want to clarify, as I did about the UVs/MUVs, that the footprint issue becomes one when driving and parking space is at a premium as it is in congested cities. I have no issue with someone using even a Hummer on the open and uncongested highways and backroads.
Enough said.