SUVs safer than sedans? Edit: evironmental impact discussions too

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by KITE RUNNER

Yes, SUVs' offer some sort of 'psychological safety'.

SUVs' r definitely unstable at very high speeds compared to a sedan in the same scenario.

An elephant ride may seem safe, but a fall can be disastrous.

True which makes that psychological safety a danger in reality. You feel safer and take more chances and end up putting yourself at risk. On the other hand, if you drove an Omni, you'd drive so carefully. Which might theoretically make the Omni the safest vehicle in a statistical sense

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by KITE RUNNER

Yes, SUVs' offer some sort of 'psychological safety'.

SUVs' r definitely unstable at very high speeds compared to a sedan in the same scenario.

An elephant ride may seem safe, but a fall can be disastrous.

it wont be disastrous if you ride an elephant the way it should be ridden!

sitting on a elephant & expecting it to gallop like a horse leads to disastrous situations.

and remember, you are the safest on an elephant, even man eaters wont dare come near you!

ok, lets stop this jungle book now!

Originally Posted by Sawyer

After I posted my thoughts, I realized that they would not be welcome in a community such as this one, so I will not post on these lines anymore over here.
But I do want to clarify, as I did about the UVs/MUVs, that the footprint issue becomes one when driving and parking space is at a premium as it is in congested cities. I have no issue with someone using even a Hummer on the open and uncongested highways and backroads.
Enough said.

looks like you took all this to heart buddy.

when you are being a part of such a debate, and that too on a public forum like this, you should be prepared for all this. i have faced more wrath than you have! but that taught me that not everybody thinks the way you do. what you think maybe right for you but maybe crap for someone else. your thinking that your thoughts will not be accepted in a community like this one is untrue. as far as i have seen, this is a totally unbiased community (exceptions are there!) & the members here are the general indian car buying public, we are no special, we have the same minds.

so, lets take all this positively.

[KITE RUNNER]

[quote=raj_5004;1445187]it wont be disastrous if you ride an elephant the way it should be ridden!

sitting on a elephant & expecting it to gallop like a horse leads to disastrous situations.

Finally, any vehicle can be safe provided it is ridden in the proper manner. Let us hope everyone on the road does the same.

But, if I am riding properly and others are not doing so, which will be safer? A lot depends on your fate.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by KITE RUNNER

Finally, any vehicle can be safe provided it is ridden in the proper manner. Let us hope everyone on the road does the same.

But, if I am riding properly and others are not doing so, which will be safer? A lot depends on your fate.

lets accept it. if an SUV collides with a sedan, there are higher chances of the occupants of the sedan getting hurt. reasons are many- bulk, height & heavy sheet metal as said by any already.

so if other are not driving properly, your fate depends on whether you are in a sedan or in a SUV.

SUVs may be dynamically unstable. thats the reason they have to be driven carefully. no such problems with the sedan.

So finally when it comes to safety, there are two aspects- active (before the collision) & passive (after the collision). sedans fare better in active safety by preventing an accident due to their better handling & grip. SUVs fare better in passive collision by protecting the occupants better in the event of a mishap. both are safe in their own respect.

[shankar.balan]

having read all these comments - i believe both points of view are perfectly fair
i drive an SUV - mostly Im alone in it - my footprint is larger than required but I like SUV's therefore I drive one.

given the condition of the roads in bangalore where i live, I am much happier in my scorpio than in the smaller swift. I dont create a ruckus on the roads but in my SUV, I feel that other ruckus creators such as autos and indicas, give my vehicle a little more respect than they give my Swift.

my scorp gives about 10kmpl (diesel) in the city with the ac. it goes to about 12-13 max on highways. the swift gives about 9-10 kmpl (petrol) in city with ac and I never take it onto the highways because I dont like driving smaller vehicles on the highways. having said this, i dont think im creating a monstrous carbon footprint every time i drive my scorpio. added to this, diesel is certainly less expensive than petrol and I prefer it because I dont need to think twice before taking a long drive.
I dont drive un-necessarily fast or do foolish things with the scorp because I respect other road users too.

therefore, inferring from this small set of points, the situation in india is a little different from the way it is in the US, Australia etc - where most of the really big SUVs are about twice the size of our Indian SUV's and drink petrol, not diesel.
diesel is a cleaner greener fuel than petrol (at least that s what I understand).

if this is to be a war on waste or a "great equalizer" kind of thing, then we probably should, as a country, consciously revert to the old protectionist days where clearly "some people - namely politicos and other business bigwigs" were always more equal than others, especially the middle-class salaried private company types of that time. (frankly Im not sure how many of us 'middle classes' or upper middle or whatever) would want to revert to the bad old indira gandhi protected economy days since we have now tasted blood (read freedom, economic comfort, freed up economy etc)

people on the forum may remember that until the 1960's the very fact that one had a car or two, separated one from the larger "mass" of people, who either couldnt afford it or simply didnt feel the need that much. those days the car was a preserve of the "elite".

Remember the whole generation of the 1970's-1980's "scooter riding army officer?". takes me back to an old article in India today of the mid eighties when Maruti came out - the article said that Maruti has changed the world of the scooter riding army officer.
Also I go back to one more article which I can clearly remember - the page 3 boys of those days were guys like the son of one of Delhi's big Maruti dealers - a chap called Sanjay Sikand from Modern School in Delhi who had a fancy, done up Maruti 800 and that actually made for enough material for a magazine like India Today to carry!

Things frankly havent changed at all since then - it is only the relative benchmarks that have - therefore the rich boys of today, drive around in Hummers, Ferrari's, Porsche Cayennes, BMW X5's and so on. Its their money, let them enjoy it!


Today,the higher disposable incomes in the private sector, the boom in the economy etc, have resulted in a complete breaking down of earlier barriers - the only barrier left, if any, is economic success - we have become a capitalist state!

therefore the beneficiaries of this capitalist approach, will surely blow their cash on whatever they like and there is NOTHING anyone can really do about it.

looks like till laws like "congestion charges", "higher vehicle tax for big vehicles" and other measures are introduced, the SUV and large vehicles are here to stay.

yes I feel sorry for the underprivileged - yes it is regrettable that there are so many poor people - but I, for one, will do my best for them also, in my microcosm - by looking after those who work with us, those whom I come into contact with and people who need help - (Charity begins at home). But Still, since it is MY money, I will surely go and enjoy the fruits of my hard work, by buying things I like - if one of those things is an SUV, then so be it!

Considering that our country still lacks the infrastructure for a large part, we do to an extent require the higher ground clearance and tall driving position - it gives us a psychological feel good which could also be in terms of "safety" etc - and there is certainly no harm in that!

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by GTO

On an enthusiast community that "lives to drive", with members who go out for a long spin just to enjoy their cars, that statement looks woefully out of place, doesn't it. After all, aren't we unnecessarily using a footprint - whatever the size - when we go out for a joy drive? It's easy to dismiss the "footprint" of an SUV as pointless, yet there are so many other pointless activities that we indulge in, as part of daily life.

Again, I reiterate, live & let live. People are free to use their cars in whatever way they want to, as long as it is within legal limits. Take a chill pill, dudes!

Quite true. The only point thats we were trying to make was that even when we employ that power and the pleasures our vehicles afford us, we do so responsively, and certainly not at the cost of others safety. I would think twice before doing something to increase my comfort/safety , which compromises those of others by a much larger extent. An argument along the lines of not wasting food/water for the sake of those unfortunate not to be able to exercise those choices in the first place

[GTO]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

After I posted my thoughts, I realized that they would not be welcome in a community such as this one, so I will not post on these lines anymore over here.

Hey Sawyer, I certainly didn't mean any offence and do accept my apologies in case I did come across that way. C'mon, it's a healthy debate...one that makes a community all the more interesting Your thoughts are more than welcome.

Originally Posted by greenhorn

Quite true. The only point thats we were trying to make was that even when we employ that power and the pleasures our vehicles afford us, we do so responsively, and certainly not at the cost of others safety.

We can drive SUVs responsibly too, can't we? In fact, if you consider that SUVs are generally slower (0 - 100 of 15 seconds) and have poorer handling, it's easier to drive a 100 BHP sedan faster / rasher than a diesel SUV.

[NIP]

I'm getting a bumper sticker that says "I'm using what your Hybrid is saving" on my SUV !

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by GTO

Hey Sawyer, I certainly didn't mean any offence and do accept my apologies in case I did come across that way. .

None taken, I had independently recognized that this was probably not the right place to air those views. No issues.

[aerohit]

Originally Posted by NIP

I'm getting a bumper sticker that says "I'm using what your Hybrid is saving" on my SUV !

You are a waste of oxygen.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Indian land 'seriously degraded'

BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | India's water use 'unsustainable'

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Mumbai faces acute water shortage

Thats what happens when more people like you exists. Keep Revving.

[Sawyer]

@Aerohit - I am sure NIP meant that in jest, I know I burst out laughing when I read his post! Seriously though, the resource crunch that we will face if we develop the remaining 3/4th of the country in the existing manner is frightening. The only thing that is more frightening than that is what the 3/4th will do to the 1/4th, if they lose their patience.
@GTO - on the slowness of the SUVs making them safe: Other than all the other reasons that they are unsafe, including the character traits they tend to bring out of the people that drive these, here is a thought directly taken from what you said. Is it also possible that knowing the time the things take to reach the desired road speed is in itself a contributor to not wanting to surrender the momentum once acquired? If I am in a quick accelerating car, I would quite ok to bide my time, slowing down behind a slower car until I can use my acceleration to scoot past it at the right time. The slow acceleration in itself may be a factor that make them unsafe then, if that thought makes me do things like flash the poor guy in a demented manner, and/or overtake him by cutting in back on him as soon as I have made the unsafe overtake. Just so I keep my hard won momentum.

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by GTO

We can drive SUVs responsibly too, can't we? In fact, if you consider that SUVs are generally slower (0 - 100 of 15 seconds) and have poorer handling, it's easier to drive a 100 BHP sedan faster / rasher than a diesel SUV.

given the state of Indian roads, I wouldn't be too sure. The point is, you can maintain higher speeds in an SUV over bad roads. More on that topic elsewhere http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...than-cars.html

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by aerohit

You are a waste of oxygen.

Lol! I expect most of us are anyway given how we drive

But why has this thread gone into the environmental impact of SUVs? We're talking about safety folks. Or maybe the mods could change the title to "Are SUVs safer than sedans featuring healthy off topic debates on commmunism, whether we ruin the planet with SUVs and some other stuff too".

[NIP]

Originally Posted by aerohit

You are a waste of oxygen.

Thats what happens when more people like you exists. Keep Revving.

Whooah ! I was just trying to lighten up things here with all the heated discussions man !! Chill out !

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by GTO

I am eager to see how SUVs spoil *the entire lot*. An exagerration at best. Again, I reiterate that anyone is free to buy whatever car they need or want. To each his own.

RE: Simple, since these are within the budget range of quite a few car buyers, and once they too believe that an SUV makes them safer on the road compared to car, SUVs will begin to dominate the road. So more and more SUVs and the resulting consequences.


So are the equal gas guzzlers that I have listed (and then, some more), starting with the Accord V6, E350, S500 etc. etc. I don't remember seeing any BMW 7 series with more than one CEO on the back seat.

RE: Correct, but how many BMWs/CEOs do you see on the road. They are still a rarity. But these "affordable SUVs" and I use the term again, to its true meaning when compared to cars of the same price range and fuel type consume at least 30% more fuel and of course, emit the same amount of pollutants as well. You need examples??: Start from the Dzire, Logan and move upto the Fiat Linea and even the Octy.



Ah, affordable SUVs. The Mahindra Scorpio gives 9.9 in the city and 13 on the highway, the Sumo Grande 9.7 and a similar 13ish on the highway, the Bolero DI 12.1 and 14.5, while the Tata Safari 9.4 & 12.7.

What part of these affordable SUVs FE looks like a guzzler to you?

I have made it clear in my above point.

P.S. : Just as an example : Each of these are more FE than your Daewoo Cielo. Plus, why is it that you ride a relatively less efficient Enfield Bullet, when a 100cc Hero Honda could do the same job just as well, and with way superior fuel efficiency? I think we know the answer.

Correct, very true. Which is why I use public transport on a daily basis to office, try to use my Bullet only for weekend/highway drives and hardly use my Cielo.
Thank you for letting my publish my personal "Carbon FootPrint". I take pride in it.



Even Bajaj Scooters have. What's the point? The statement I made earlier stands as a fact : SUVs & MUVS - especially the ladder frame type - are able to take a lot more abuse.

The point is very simple. This whim of the SUVs being safer in the city just because they "Tower" over smaller automobiles needs to be broken. They are a menace if not driven responsibly. They are good, like I mentioned for semi-urban areas and the like where the roads are really bad.

If we are to go by your line of thought, that puny little 800 can do a 100 kph (which is the max speed limit in India), seat 5 passengers, is a nippy handler and has awesome reliability ratings. Why do we need to buy larger, safer and lesser efficient cars at all then! Let's all of us restrict ourselves to 800s and Nanos exclusively.

RE:So going by your line of thought lets ignore the fuel efficient saloons, which are safer, faster and comfortable and buy only SUVs. Lets not buy cars like the Laura/Linea/Dzire/Optra which can deliver good mileage alongwith performance and are co-road user, pedestrian and eco friendly and restrict ourselves only to SUVs.

Again, to each his own. While I am not going to buy an SUV for urban use, and do use my Jeep exactly what she was built for, I'm certainly not going to point a finger at an urban SUV owner. Big deal, let him use it the way he is happy to.

RE: Which is exactly the point here. We, as a forum need to arrive at justifiable opinions because we are viewed, analyzed and to a certain extent, emulated by many. Lets us understand that we have a social and environmental responsibility and not shirk from it on the basis of "to each his own"theory.

Good that you will not buy an SUV for urban use because that was my entire point.
Lets hope many follow you.



I don't see where the similarity with Americans comes up. But yes, when I am on a road trip, its most probably with a large group. And no, there isn't a *wow* factor either. If you want any confirmation of our baggage habits, just ask anyone of your friends who have experience in international airlines. Indians do NOT travel light and that's a fact. Its a lifestyle thing.

RE:How many road trips do we make with more than 5 people with us continuously? And any modern sedan with a decent boot has enough space for the luggage for such a trip. For marriage parties, you always have legions of Innova cab services available everywhere.

RE:Here comes the "Wow" again.Habits-something we get away with very easily. Throw garbage on the road-habit-cant change easily, Misuse electricity-habit-cant change easily. Stand too close to people and push them around-habit-cant change easily so lets be the way we are-the "Chalta Hai" factor, "Wow".
Bad habits need to change and the sooner we do it the better, for others and for us. And we have been taught this since school.

America and Americans have faced and are facing the consequences of this one word-Lifestyle-. It is something which the entire world is witness to. The sooner we make our lifestyle efficient, greener and socially responsible, all the better for us.