SUVs safer than sedans? Edit: evironmental impact discussions too

n.devdath · 25th August 2009, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

Huh? That's rididulous. I thought we are talking about guzzlers "per se"! Firstly, by themselves, they are even more of gas guzzlers than our 10 lakh SUVs. It just shows the irony of the situation when people will not hesitate to call "10 kpl SUVs" guzzlers, yet the same people will never speak of a 4 kpl S500 in an equally derogatory manner.

True, but how many s500s do you see on the road compared to "affordable SUVs"? You cannot compare the damage done miniscule share of participants to that of a larger number. I am surprised the law of averages doesnt work with your line of thinking.

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Originally Posted by GTO

Second, do you think that India is the only country that contributes to global warming? LOL! There are atleast 40 million V6 - V8 5 kpl cars on the roads worldwide today. But hey, as I posted earlier, the "gas guzzler" term is only for SUVs right? Even if they give a reasonable 10 kpl in the city and 12 on the highway! And no, this trend isn't exclusive to India. It's prevalent in teh States too. Americans will scoff at a Hummer H3, but drool over a Mercedes S550 or a Mustang V8 (which are as much of a guzzler as the Hummer). Blind bashing is an appropriate term here.

Exactly, so, since we are not the only culprits, or probably we are among the smaller ones, lets not improve any more, we do not need to, even when there are options.

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Originally Posted by GTO

Another example of blind bashing SUVS : Why is it that only SUVs are targetted? Why not MUVs? In the last 5 pages of discussion, I have not seen anyone bring up an MUV. Are all MUVs laden with 9 passengers all of the time? It is a fact that MUVs outsell SUVs in our country, and we see more MUVS in urban India than SUVs. Why this herd mentality of targeting SUVs alone? Because they look cooler? Or is it because they are macho? Or is it due to their intimidating design?

The reason for increased MUV sales is largely due to 2 reasons. The taxi market forms a large part of their sales. Secondly, there are people who need to haul more passengers or goods or both regularly or need to drive in bad road conditions who buy MUVs. I m surprised I need to tell you this.

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Originally Posted by GTO

Or are you of the opinion that every Innova out there always has 7 passengers & is used only on the highway? I have yet to see criticism toward an MUV. Worth thinking about. Worth a point.

Point clarified above.

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Originally Posted by GTO

I see more sedans carrying one person, than I do even two. Thus, when a 5 seater can carry 1 passenger and get away with it, why do we point a finger at an SUV carrying 2? Ah, the imbalance within our society.

That is due a simple fact that are more sedans on the road, simple commonsense. Also, since most of our modern sedans are more fuel efficient than our "affordable SUVs", they would contribute not only to comparatively lesser pollution but also to a smaller footprint.
And before it is interpreted that a sedan carrying one or persons is supported by me, let me clarify it is not, but the the above circumstance, the damage it does is still lesser than an SUV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

Of course. But that doesn't take away from the fact that 9.5 - 10.0 kpl is still a very respectable FE figure for congested cities. Give these affordable SUVs an open road and they'll deliver between 11 - 12 kpl. Hardly a number that we can call a guzzler.

That is the whole point, why would you need a vehicle consuming that much fuel, road space and endangering the safety of the other pedestrians and cars in already "congested" cities as you term it when a comfortable sedan can to do the same job.

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Originally Posted by GTO

Would a diesel sedan be more FE than an SUV? Of course. But then, why stop at sedans? Basically what you are saying is, why do the job with bigger when it can be done with smaller? Considering that 90% of the sedans out there are carrying only 1 - 2 passengers 90% of the time, all of us can buy Tata Nanos. Or wait, even Hero Honda CD100s & mopeds.

See, the middle line or the "agreeable median" just doesnt work with you. Its either an SUV or a CD 100/Nano. There is nothing in between that can create a win-win situation for the owner, other road user and the environment, Its either and SUV or a cycle. I must say WoW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

Just because there is a more fuel efficient alternative to the same task doesn't make a vehicle that is respectably fuel efficient to start with (e.g. a 10 kpl SUV) a guzzler.

It is about changing or at least thinking about an equally comfortable and a more fuel efficient alternative with some consideration towards others and the environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

Still doesn't take away from the fact that, how much ever you use your Bullet, a Hero Honda CD100 would be more fuel efficient and serve exactly the same function. The difference between a Hero Honda and your Bullet is less than the difference between a fuel efficient sedan and an "affordable" SUV. Go figure. Very convenient to ride a vehicle half as fuel efficient as other alternatives that can do the same job, but blindly call 10 kpl SUVs as gas guzzlers!

Exactly. Which is why I was never against the use of SUVs for people who are on the highway/live in places which have always had no-roads/often travel long distances with family/need to haul goods etc.
Please read what I say before you comment on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

Remember, we aren't talking about heavy usage patterns versus light. We are discussing FE & carbon footprints (independent of usage quantity).

See, here it comes again. There is nothing called an "average" here. Its either this way or that. We are discussing "need vs want" and Freedom of Purchase and Exploitation Vs Environmental and Social Responsibility.

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Originally Posted by GTO

On a related note, didn't you just recommend a 6 - 7 kpl Skoda RS to someone in another thread? For someone who is so concerned about FE & carbon emissions, I can surely see how that car is green.

Yes, I did because, like I have said it so many times, we are talking, at least a few of us are, talking averages. How many VRses do you see on the road? And it is a certainly a gas guzzler but still is not as big as an SUV and is much safer for others on the road.

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Originally Posted by GTO

Any car is a menace if driven irresponsibly. A 100 BHP Verna being driven rashly, in the wrong hands, is as much of a menace as any other car on the road.

Indeed it is. But a higher car does more damage to a smaller car/pedestrians and this is a very well known fact. Which is why SUVs are potentially more harmful in the same situation compared to a sedan.

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Originally Posted by GTO

It's pretty obvious that you've missed my line of thought so please go back and read my post again, in entirety. I have absolutely no problem with someone driving an 800 to Ladakh, or using an affordable "respectable FE" SUV in the city. I insist, to each his own, AS LONG as it is within the legal framework. And to those that call SUV's gas guzzlers, I've just given you examples of well-priced 10 kpl SUVs. No one in their right frame of mind is going to call a 10 kpl SUV a guzzler.

That is where it all begins. We tend to do "Only what is Legally Binding". And without a care to what is socially, environmentally or at times even morally binding because nothing stops us from doing it. This is what needs to change.

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Originally Posted by GTO

Actually, today, you can have your cake and eat it too. Get the Scorpio hybrid. While your Cielo - which doesn't even meet todays emission norms - is spitting out emissions from its tail pipe in traffic, the scorpio start-stop feature will shut the engine off = zero emissions! So which is more environment friendly here? A Scorpio microhybrid which will give 11 kpl in the city, zero emissions when standing still in traffic or a Cielo running on outdated emission standards & gives out 7 kpl in the city?

I need to repeat what I have said earlier, well this time with figures I guess. My Cielo has not been used continuously for the past year now. Moreover, it has an LPG kit not only for cost effectiveness but also to be as green as it can be.

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Originally Posted by GTO

Absolutely. That's why we have articles on fuel efficiency, safe driving and do NOT permit a single thread or post on street racing. That said, we do not believe in biased information or unfounded statements, which is precisely the reasoning behind this debate. I find it ironical how someone can call a 10 kpl SUV a guzzler, and in the same breadth accept a 5 kpl Accord V6 or a 4 kpl S500. This is hilarity at its absolute best and we do what we can to bust myths.

Same point again, how may Accords Vs the "affordable SUVs". Moreover, and this may or may not be true but most of the premium sedans pollute lesser, need lesser space, and have better pedestrian safety standards than SUVs the world over. Isnt it the same here as well??

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Originally Posted by GTO

If we have to spread awareness, we ought to do so factually. Precisely why I make the point that most "affordable" Indian SUVS are pretty fuel-efficient. They are NOT guzzlers. Heck, even the Honda Civic consumes more fuel than these SUVs.

If you want to compare a Civic with an SUV, bring on a petrol SUV. Lets keep a level playing ground when comparing things if it is a bid to arrive at a conclusion, else we could keep talking here for no reason.

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Originally Posted by GTO

Again, I would appreciate your reading my posts in their entirety before making unfounded conclusions. I have stated that I have a Jeep that I use for offroading. Nowhere have I stated that I won't buy an SUV for urban use. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. What I do believe in is "To each his own".....again, as long as it is within legal parameters. I believe in letting the free market decide whether someone drives an 800 or an S Class or a Landcruiser. And WRT emission norms, governments are making them stricter all the time. Bharat stage IV norms are excellent, no vehicle which is unnecessarily polluting can cell in India.

There has been enough brainstorming on this "to each his own" policy world over and all of us are aware of the consequences of the same. I m surprised you still hold on to what most developed nations have realised they should have abandoned long ago.
As someone said, Money is not a license to waste natural resources and deny others their valid rights.

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Originally Posted by GTO

I don't know how you define comfort, but my Honda City doesn't have the space to carry 5 adults & their luggage in comfort. Neither does my C220 sedan. For the record, we are 6 in the immediate family. And for those times when a 12 - 13 kpl highway SUV is carrying 6 passengers, well, it works out more enviro-friendly than two 15 kpl sedans carrying 3 each, WOT?

The definition of comfort is very simple depending on how you look at it. It is an individual perception but one can draw an acceptable middle line. But for some reason, it doesn't go with your line of thought which is- Either SUV(or whatever I want/can buy) or the NANO and a cycle.
And as I have clarified many times, there is no denying the fact that there is a share of people who need and not want and SUV and should go for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

Similarly, we can all ride around on mopeds and rent out a sedan when we need to travel outstation. After all, 90% of the sedans out there are not using their boot 90% of the time!

Your fav line comes again either an SUV or a TVS 50. I m laughing out loud now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

Please get your facts in order. The Laura is NOT selling like hot cakes. It has lost out on sales & market share over the past 12 months. Refer to the sales analysis threads for more information.

But it certainly is a very successfull model. And the Laura was just an example. If you havent gotten my point in quoting that,I m surprised but I can give more examples. Jetta, Linea, Fiesta, Ikon TDCI, Dzire, Logan, Indigo, .

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Originally Posted by GTO

Absolutely. All things being equal - in terms of modernity, safety rating & safety equipment - an SUV is the safer in a crash with a sedan. Think M Class versus C Class. Or Landcruiser versus Corolla!

Ha, see, now the comparison goes to higher levels where there was no debate. It is well known that a world class SUV is as safe as a car.

All in all, there are more cars, more diesel cars, more diesel 5 seater fuel efficient cars, more diesel 5 seater fuel efficient cars in India than SUVs so the game is already closed.

suman · 25th August 2009, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawyer

But first, the point being made by me, and I think by him, is - ought we to consume more than what we need, when the consumption impinges on our fellow citizens welfare?

Sawyer, no offense mate but what gives you (or anyone else for that matter) the right to decide all this?

Just out of idle curiosity, are you also planning on giving up all your wordly "extras" in your possession & heading for the nearest ashram? Or even, perhaps, the Himalayas? Or is it that you haven't reached that point of "more than what we need" yet?

shankar.balan · 25th August 2009, 16:21

Ha! GTO - you reacted to my fuel to the fire post.

Yes I appreciate the points you've made in your posts especially ref our Indian SUV's and their FE and the sedans and their FE.

I also appreciate the points made by others.

And I do appreciate fully that this thread is for SUV vs Sedan - Safety and NOT an environmental thread.

Having said all this, India is still a very young country as far as 'consumerism' is concerned and we do have our learning curve ahead of us.

For the moment, this new found financial freedom amongst us Indians is definitely going to result in some rampant consumer spend behaviour for a while - atleast till we get tired of it - like I d said in one of the earlier posts on this thread - like giving a kid sweets - sooner or later he will get sick of them!

There is nothing wrong with that, to reiterate earlier points made.

And in terms of safety - yet again - it is NOT the vehicle - it is the Driver of the said vehicle who is responsible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO

What gets my goat is people blindly calling all SUVs as guzzlers. I mean, sure, I'll give it to you that a 3.5 kpl Ford Expedition is a guzzler. But the same guy who tells someone to drive 13 kpl sedan instead of a 10 kpl SUV, can be told to drive a 16 kpl hatch instead of a 13 kpl sedan!

From what angle are vehicles like the Sumo, Scorpio, Safari etc. guzzlers? Anyone will agree that their FE is pretty respectable. Heck, the Indian market is the best judge of that. If they were guzzlers - by mass opinion - they would NOT sell in the first place!

Yeah, maybe we should all stop going out for joy drives, driving holidays, offroading, high-revving etc. etc. What's next? We stop using air-conditioners & washing machines?

Could be for those who term a 10 kpl SUV as a guzzler, and conveniently turn a blind eye to that *smaller* BMW 325i which is capable of only 5 kpl.

MileCruncher · 25th August 2009, 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawyer

@GTO - I look forward to reading Devdaths comebacks, because I know there are valid ones to most of your points.
I will talk to one and clarify another.
But first, the point being made by me, and I think by him, is - ought we to consume more than what we need, when the consumption impinges on our fellow citizens welfare? Living in society, even more so in one such as India is today, I find it hard to accept that one can, just because the law allows it, and I have the money to do it. I do not expect others to live by this standard, but I do have the right to propagate it, because I believe one has to set the standard for the law to maybe incorporate one day, I don't really care either way if it does or not. I would rather be ahead of legislation, than follow in its trail, giving up only those things I legally cannot do. But that's me, and I accept fully that you have the right to propagate your convictions just as strongly if you think differently. Now, whether I have the right to propagate mine on a forum such as this - a valid question, I admit, and the mods always have the legitimate prerogative to delete any post if it is an inappropriate post by their lights.
And do I live by that standard in all I do - of course not, and it is an ongoing struggle, but one to keep struggling over and aspire to. I for one am definitely not holding my behaviour as a shining example! But I do think that as educated leaders in the country, we have to show the path that our elected leaders are failing to. If we do not, and we want that bunch to legislate all the right things that need to be done, we are headed for big trouble.
With that said for context, my two points -
1. If the Accords/BMWs or whatever other fuel guzzling/large footprint cars were to become available at price points that allowed them to also proliferate, I would object to them as well. Why would anyone have a purely anti SUV bias?
2. I was the one that exempted the UVs/MUVs from the category being discussed to keep the language simple. On the assumption that these are bought for their people carrying capability, and if so, would be used as such for the bulk of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suman

Sawyer, no offense mate but what gives you (or anyone else for that matter) the right to decide all this?

Just out of idle curiosity, are you also planning on giving up all your wordly "extras" in your possession & heading for the nearest ashram? Or even, perhaps, the Himalayas? Or is it that you haven't reached that point of "more than what we need" yet?

+1 to that

@ Sawyer: No offence sir, but haven't you just now bought a Spark, i20 and planning to get a Gypsy. Why so much consumption when all you need is a set of basic four wheels to go around.

Cheers

diabloo · 25th August 2009, 16:25

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Originally Posted by bhogalrajnish

SUVs are safer than Cars ??

Depends on situation. Basically, 'when'.

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On the road we see what is a flock of sheep running .

In this case, SUV is better.

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In this senario what do you preffer a SUV that every body stays away from or a sleek car that you feel like every one wants to kiss from all sides.

Either SUV or sedan, eventually you get kissed. I don't think it will bothered you, if you are in an SUV, atleast most of the times.

Sawyer · 25th August 2009, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by suman

Sawyer, no offense mate but what gives you (or anyone else for that matter) the right to decide all this?

Just out of idle curiosity, are you also planning on giving up all your wordly "extras" in your possession & heading for the nearest ashram? Or even, perhaps, the Himalayas? Or is it that you haven't reached that point of "more than what we need" yet?

You are the second person here to decide that I am deciding this for anyone other than me! I am simply posing questions to anyone who cares to read them - I am not even enforcing that part, the reading of the question! It is for you to read or not read and then follow whatever your voice dictates to you.
For the rest, as you described it yourself, it is indeed idle curiosity on your part!

suman · 25th August 2009, 16:41

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Originally Posted by Sawyer

You are the second person here to decide that I am deciding this for anyone other than me!

The use of "I" instead of "we" would help prevent the misconception that you are passing judgement on all

Just my two cents. Oh & yes, my idle curiosity was more about Walking the Talk. As in - if you think you are consuming more than what you need, what are you prepared to do about it?

Sawyer · 25th August 2009, 16:41

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Originally Posted by MileCruncher

+1 to that

@ Sawyer: No offence sir, but haven't you just now bought a Spark, i20 and planning to get a Gypsy. Why so much consumption when all you need is a set of basic four wheels to go around.

Cheers

Whenever anyone starts a sentence saying - "To be very frank..."!! This is in a similar vein

To understand the reason and context for my acquisitions, you would need to read the various posts in different threads.

amitoj · 25th August 2009, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawyer

You are the second person here to decide that I am deciding this for anyone other than me! I am simply posing questions to anyone who cares to read them - I am not even enforcing that part, the reading of the question! It is for you to read or not read and then follow whatever your voice dictates to you.

The count is up to 3 now

I must say you are quite persistent with your questions though! You yourself dont seem to stop till you hear an answer that satisfies your line of thinking. No one is forcing you either to read the answers that you are not liking, and yet you do and declare such people as "consumers of more than what they need".

freewheelburnin · 25th August 2009, 16:59

[quote=n.devdath;1449201]True, but how many s500s do you see on the road compared to "affordable SUVs"? You cannot compare the damage done miniscule share of participants to that of a larger number. I am surprised the law of averages doesnt work with your line of thinking.

Exactly, so, since we are not the only culprits, or probably we are among the smaller ones, lets not improve any more, we do not need to, even when there are options.

The reason for increased MUV sales is largely due to 2 reasons. The taxi market forms a large part of their sales. Secondly, there are people who need to haul more passengers or goods or both regularly or need to drive in bad road conditions who buy MUVs. I m surprised I need to tell you this.

Are all innovas running on Indian Roads taxis?Majority of taxis are indicas.In India SUV/MUV usually serve the same purpose.Either transport more people or handling bad roads better.So is it the fact that S.U.Vs looks better that is bothering you?

That is due a simple fact that are more sedans on the road, simple commonsense. Also, since most of our modern sedans are more fuel efficient than our "affordable SUVs", they would contribute not only to comparatively lesser pollution but also to a smaller footprint.
My Santro consumed Rs2500 Worth fuel on a trip to kerala when my safari consumed 1600 worth of fuel.Now tell me which is the guzzler?If your economics theories could explain this i would be pleased to hear!

And before it is interpreted that a sedan carrying one or persons is supported by me, let me clarify it is not, but the the above circumstance, the damage it does is still lesser than an SUV.
Are you setting limits for society to follow.Why dont you use a cycle instead?

That is the whole point, why would you need a vehicle consuming that much fuel, road space and endangering the safety of the other pedestrians and cars in already "congested" cities as you term it when a comfortable sedan can to do the same job.
Is a 1.5 feet longer and a feet wider SUV(compared to a sedan) going to eat all available road space?Wait till the nanos come out.

See, the middle line or the "agreeable median" just doesnt work with you. Its either an SUV or a CD 100/Nano. There is nothing in between that can create a win-win situation for the owner, other road user and the environment, Its either and SUV or a cycle. I must say WoW.
Who is creating the agreeable median here?You or the poor guy who owns a bajaj scooter?

It is about changing or at least thinking about an equally comfortable and a more fuel efficient alternative with some consideration towards others and the environment.
Buy a reva/cycle and do the environment some good if you really wanna contribute?Again a reva uses energy of coal which is burnt to produce the electricity.I think you should wait for nuclear power.Cycle would be a better option

Exactly. Which is why I was never against the use of SUVs for people who are on the highway/live in places which have always had no-roads/often travel long distances with family/need to haul goods etc.
Please read what I say before you comment on it.
Very kind of you.

Yes, I did because, like I have said it so many times, we are talking, at least a few of us are, talking averages. How many VRses do you see on the road? And it is a certainly a gas guzzler but still is not as big as an SUV and is much safer for others on the road.

Are big SUVs haunting you at night in your dreams?VRS looks milder and less scary i agree

Indeed it is. But a higher car does more damage to a smaller car/pedestrians and this is a very well known fact. Which is why SUVs are potentially more harmful in the same situation compared to a sedan.
Yes we S.U.V drivers go about every day causing larger damage to pedestrians around.Then buses and trucks should be replaced by sedans too.

Same point again, how may Accords Vs the "affordable SUVs". Moreover, and this may or may not be true but most of the premium sedans pollute lesser, need lesser space, and have better pedestrian safety standards than SUVs the world over. Isnt it the same here as well??
Do you have the guts to stand in front of an accord and trust it's pedestrain safety will save you?

As someone said, Money is not a license to waste natural resources and deny others their valid rights.
Why do you need rooms in your house.A single hall and a bathroom would do right.Why waste natural resources and space?

Your fav line comes again either an SUV or a TVS 50. I m laughing out loud now.
Please continue laughing.It's good for your health and others around you

MileCruncher · 25th August 2009, 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Whenever anyone starts a sentence saying - "To be very frank..."!! This is in a similar vein

To understand the reason and context for my acquisitions, you would need to read the various posts in different threads.

I'm not against consumption and hence not against you buying 3 cars as each is for specific use. For those of us who are not fortunate enough to buy different vehicles for different use, they buy something that takes care of everything. Just because it happens to be a SUV, they should not be chastised.

Consumption should be with responsibility but still at the end of the day, it is an individual's choice and should be treated that way till the time it is within the legal purview.

Sawyer · 25th August 2009, 17:18

@Milecruncher - one of the reasons for road rage is that people project their egos onto their cars, and react accordingly - for instance if overtaken and then the guy cuts in sharply. Or even if someone just overtakes me. Here too, the tendency is to be defensive about the car you have bought. There is absolutely no need to be that way, I submit. And if you read what I wrote, it asked a question of consuming more than what you need, while impinging on a neighbours welfare. So, if you want to ask yourself that question, ask it of yourself. If, as it appears to be in your case, the SUV was the only solution that meets your needs, why should your answer to that question leave you feeling chastised in any way? This question is a classic example of wearing the hat only if it fits you. I expected that to be understood, but if it has not been, my sincere apologies.

n.devdath · 25th August 2009, 17:27

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