[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

My discourse would be simple - if you are aware, if you know about importance of safety, and safety ratings of cars, and still you buy an unsafe car...you can't hide behind excuses like "it's safer than a bike" or "it's safer than public transport".
Those who are unaware, are innocent, those who ignore, are plain stupid.
Having said that, there are only a handful of cars that are rated on safety (India made, made for India), so this whole argument is subjective

Rather a harsh view and symptomatic of what I referred to in my earlier post (#8) as the 'Safety Arrogance Club'. Your and our knowledge and awareness of safety is due to being an auto enthusiast and to forums like Team BHP. It isn't because we are wiser or cleverer. What if that second hand Maruti Alto is all the citizen can afford. Does that still make him stupid? Dwell on that before answering. If safety alone is your over riding criteria then buy only Volvo products regardless of whether your purse can bear it. What we considered adequately safe cars in 1983 were overtaken by the new makes that came in, in the 1990s (Opel Astra, Cielo etc). What we considered adequate in 2005 is looked down upon today. The car you buy today with 4 stars NCAP will seem less than adequate in 2040. A 25-year old in 2040 will look down on middle aged you and say what a fool for buying that VW Polo back in 2020. It pays to pause and think before calling others fools.

Are you saying the family of 4 on a 2-wheeler should not graduate up to a second hand Alto? Please could you clarify your stance. Reflect before answering.

All cars are safe if you drive them carefully and within reasonable safe speed limits. All cars are unsafe, to varying degrees, if in Indian traffic and highway chaos you want to drive above 80 kmph.

Safety norms are relative to time and to what you can afford. Every citizen is entitled to the extra safety he can afford without being labelled a moron. Why are you driving a Dzire or Vista and not a Volvo XC90. The latter brings oodles more safety to the table?

[stallmaster]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Rather a harsh view and symptomatic of what I referred to in my earlier post (#8) as the 'Safety Arrogance Club'. Your and our knowledge and awareness of safety is due to being an auto enthusiast and to forums like Team BHP. It isn't because we are wiser or cleverer. What if that second hand Maruti Alto is all the citizen can afford. Does that still make him stupid? Dwell on that before answering. If safety alone is your over riding criteria then buy only Volvo products regardless of whether your purse can bear it. What we considered adequately safe cars in 1983 were overtaken by the new makes that came in, in the 1990s (Opel Astra, Cielo etc). What we considered adequate in 2005 is looked down upon today. The car you buy today with 4 stars NCAP will seem less than adequate in 2040. A 25-year old in 2040 will look down on middle aged you and say what a fool for buying that VW Polo back in 2020. It pays to pause and think before calling others fools.

There's a thing called aspiration. I understand safety is important, but no 5star vehicle is available in starting range of most manufacturers. Plus there's a second hand market as well, which is quite a lot bigger than the first hand market.

A salaried man who is planning to upgrade to a 4wheeler from a 2wheeler for his 4 member family and has a 2-3lakh budget has so many options available for him in the 1st/2nd hand market. What do you tell him? Save up, get a 7lakh 5star car or give up on your dream of owning a 4wheeler? A person who tells him that is due for a reality check. Privileged outlook is not equal to reality. One's aspiration shouldn't be bound by a single issue imo.

Mod Note: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers.

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Are you saying the family of 4 on a 2-wheeler should not graduate up to a second hand Alto? Please could you clarify your stance. Reflect before answering.

All cars are safe if you drive them carefully and within reasonable safe speed limits. All cars are unsafe, to varying degrees, if in Indian traffic and highway chaos you want to drive above 80 kmph.

Safety norms are relative to time and to what you can afford. Every citizen is entitled to the extra safety he can afford without being labelled a moron. Why are you driving a Dzire or Vista and not a Volvo XC90. The latter brings oodles more safety to the table?

Maybe I failed to elaborate my thoughts clearly. So I will try again.

IF I know about safety rating of cars "that I can afford" and still buy the unsafe ones, excuses like "it is safer than a 2 wheeler" or "it is safer than public transport" - it is plain stupid.

My argument is not about people graduating from a Hero Splendor to an Alto, it is more for people buying a Baleno over an Altroz, or a Venue/Sonet over XUV300 and Nexon for example.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Maybe I failed to elaborate my thoughts clearly. So I will try again.

IF I know about safety rating of cars "that I can afford" and still buy the unsafe ones, excuses like "it is safer than a 2 wheeler" or "it is safer than public transport" - it is plain stupid.

My argument is not about people graduating from a Hero Splendor to an Alto, it is more for people buying a Baleno over an Altroz, or a Venue/Sonet over XUV300 and Nexon for example.

At one level, this particular argument has no data to back it up. The Baleno, Venue, Sonet have not been tested/GNCAP certified yet. On top of this, all current cars in production conform to the Government approved safety norms. A point which I have been repeatedly making is, that our perceived notion of GNCAP certified safety does not make any impact unless the regulator makes the necessary changes. And at another level, Safety is also an evolving issue. A Fiat Punto kind of a car. that we still praise to high heaven, went from 5 stars to zero stars as per a recent EuroNCAP testing.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by AYP

With the advent of social media and better internet access, people have now been able to showcase this vigilantism on a larger scale.

It's probably more virtue signalling than vigilantism. (And virtue signalling comes out of need for reassurance, to have others confirm how 'good' one is!) From what I've seen, posts that take that sort of line are not about concern about safety, it's mostly about 'hey, look at me I'm so aware, I'm SO much better than the masses, I've bought xyz brand of vehicle which is superior!'

Having said that, raising awareness about safety is certainly important. As with everything in life, there are (few) people who do it kindly and wisely, the majority will be catty and superior about it. We can learn from the person...and discard the noise!

[sreejithkk]

Originally Posted by Cessna182

You pay hard earned money for a car. Why not get a safe one which sells at the same price?

It is great that safety awareness is increasing in our country as general public are aware what is crash safety rating, what is the purpose of airbags etc. Also government is slowly moving towards making certain safety features mandatory, which is a good thing.

However the issue that OP mentioned is more towards unsolicited comments/advices I think.
If I have X amount of money, what car I am going to buy is completely my own decision and my own right. Even if there is another safer car available in the same price/ lesser price, the decision of the car that I choose should be honored.
Making me aware of a safer car at the same price is a good thing. But questioning some one's purchase decision is not a great thing IMO.

Also safety may not be the only concern for everyone during a car purchase. Some people may put higher preference to perceived reliability, service network, feel good factor, IMAGE etc over/along with safety.

And only if all the Indian market cars available are tested and have a safety rating, that will make a level playground. As of now only 20% of the cars on sale are tested by GNCAP (I do not value other NCAP like ASEAN NCAP, Euro NCAP as they are not tested for Indian market models. Same car brand have different ratings in GNCAP compared to their over their overseas NCAP rating)

Also another trend I could see that generalizing safety rating across manufacture by taking in to account of the rating of just one model.
For example Ford cars are superior in safety over Asian brands is a common perception. Fact is that GNCAP rating is available only for For Figo/Aspire that is currently on sale which scored 3 star. Everything else is discussed based on the corresponding rating in their overseas models. Maruti has about 5 current models tested by GNAP which are having 0,2,3,4 stars respectively but the perception is all of their model are unsafe. VAG group has only one model (POLO) is tested by GNCAP but general perception is that all of the VAG cars sold in India are safer (Which may be true as they are CBU/CKD but their GNCAP rating are not yet proven.)

So safety can be enforced only by government, and hope government will eventually do it despite the pressure from manufactures/SIAM.

[Kosfactor]

Arrogance and general lack of humility has enabled this Elitist view about things - I suggest such people to venture out into the belly of this beast called India, meet the real people that makes this population, its not difficult, its often where you have come from and forgotten the ways - they usually only have a 0 star rated worn out slipper for safety.

My view about safety is that its relative - there is no absolute safety - there is only Safer than -

Those who can afford to pay for more safety kit, go ahead. Just do not get in the way of the Splendor guy who has saved money for years to buy his Alto800, you have no right to be in his way, period.

[Tojo_GotBhp]

With the arrival of social media and it's reach among the general public, safety has been emphasised like never before. Good signs and kudos to the manufacturers who kick-started it!

But one thing which I've felt being neglected is educating public about safe driving practices and traffic rules. What's the point of giving safer cars if people continue being arrogant?

Yes, the fatality rate might drop, but the number of accidents?

I don't have data to support my claim, but I've heard few people claiming that a 4/5 star rated car would protect them in any given conditions, and with this illusion they tend to get even more rash on the roads. (Note: I'm not generalizing this statement)

Look at how Team-BHP has helped it's fellow members and other enthusiasts through it's various threads focusing on road safety. The Accidents in India thread has helped several of us to learn from other people's mistakes and educated us on how to react if we're in a similar situation. Now, Team-BHP has a reach only among the enthusiasts, for the others there's social media. At a time when safety is discussed like never before, I feel we shouldn't neglect this opportunity to educate people also about safe driving manners.

Safe Driver + Safe Car makes for a good combo! Even if we remove the latter the roads can still be safe, but removing the former can be dangerous.

Thanks.

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

At one level, this particular argument has no data to back it up. The Baleno, Venue, Sonet have not been tested/GNCAP certified yet. On top of this, all current cars in production conform to the Government approved safety norms. A point which I have been repeatedly making is, that our perceived notion of GNCAP certified safety does not make any impact unless the regulator makes the necessary changes. And at another level, Safety is also an evolving issue. A Fiat Punto kind of a car. that we still praise to high heaven, went from 5 stars to zero stars as per a recent EuroNCAP testing.

Well, first of all (not to you specifically, but pointing to the general tone in the thread), talking about safer cars is not "elitist" or "internet warriors" or "vigilantism". And it is OK to buy anything you want, your money, your decision, your life.

1. Buying a car which later turned out to be unsafe (Like Seltos) is one thing, but buying it "after" that, is different. If calling it stupid hurts someone's sentiments, apologies.

2. It is OK to buy a car knowing it to be unsafe as well. But I reserve my right to call it unsafe because, well, it is unsafe.

3. It is OK to be stupid and accept that unapologetically, rather than trying to prove that I am wise with the decision. People buy cars just for sunroofs and mood lighting these days. All the Maruti car owners I have met till today (yes, All of them) will not deny that Maruti cars are unsafe. They know, and they accept that. And no one makes fun of them. At best, we make fun of Maruti as a company for selling unsafe cars and that is not wrong. I myself has an Alto in my hometown, and it serves the purpose of occasionally driving within the city limits.

4. My current car is also not GNCAP rated (5th Gen City), so yes I'm stupid as well.

[Keeleri_Achu]

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

My argument is not about people graduating from a Hero Splendor to an Alto, it is more for people buying a Baleno over an Altroz, or a Venue/Sonet over XUV300 and Nexon for example.

I've been keeping quite in all threads related to safety as it felt like being stuck in an infinite loop. But this argument needs an answer.

My sister bought a Baleno over an Altroz four months ago. The reason was pretty simple. I believe a car with proper automatic transmission is safer/convenient for a learner like her than than a manual transmission car with a 5* rating. The only car with 5* rating and a proper automatic transmission is the Nexon EV which will be way over budget and frankly not advisable as a primary car. My point is that a lot of factors comes to play when someone is making a purchase decision. Yes, safety is a crucial aspect. But you shouldn't consider someone stupid just because they overlooked a 5* car.

Quite a few people, including my father who stopped driving the next day I got my license, questioned my advice. Thankfully they all got the point after a quick conversation. Which cannot be said about the comment war in online forums. The most common reply I've seen in such 'What car?' threads is "You can wait for the automatic. It's just around the corner". When you ask why it's not here even after a year, you'll hear "Well the manufacturer never said they'll be launching it at this time. It's all hype by media". Then you can see responses like "Can you explain why you went for this model despite it's so and so safety rating?". This will be after his detailed post on 'requirements'. The point is, unless you're gifting the car to the other person, state your opinion/advice and move on. Don't look down on others once they made their decision.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by Keeleri_Achu

Then you can see responses like "Can you explain why you went for this model despite it's so and so safety rating?". This will be after his detailed post on 'requirements'. The point is, unless you're gifting the car to the other person, state your opinion/advice and move on. Don't look down on others once they made their decision.

Well said Sir.

This kitna deta hai \ Mileage campaign was so strong that even today, the second or third question about just about any car - 'What mileage does it give?' and if its less than their car, you become a sinner.

[Jeroen]

Here is another interest aspect of safety concern. Safety is not just about your own and your passenger safety, but it is also how you and your behaviour impacts other road users. Driving too fast, poor maintenance, distraction.

Then there are those who willingly and admittedly take their life into their own hands by doing ridiculous modifications and don’t give a toss about potentially killing others due to their own cavalier attitude:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/diy-d...ml#post4979033

Jeroen

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by Keeleri_Achu

I've been keeping quite in all threads related to safety as it felt like being stuck in an infinite loop. But this argument needs an answer.

The point is, unless you're gifting the car to the other person, state your opinion/advice and move on. Don't look down on others once they made their decision.

I 100% agree with you, sir. Please go through my post just above your post. I don't look down on people based on their decision of buying a car. I am myself one of those people who had an Alto in the family, and will happily accept that it is an unsafe car and it should be driven keeping that in mind. I am not justifying saying it conforms to "govt safety regulations".

The key to drive safely lies in accepting that you are driving an unsafe car.

Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator

Well, first of all (not to you specifically, but pointing to the general tone in the thread), talking about safer cars is not "elitist" or "internet warriors" or "vigilantism". And it is OK to buy anything you want, your money, your decision, your life.

1. Buying a car which later turned out to be unsafe (Like Seltos) is one thing, but buying it "after" that, is different. If calling it stupid hurts someone's sentiments, apologies.

2. It is OK to buy a car knowing it to be unsafe as well. But I reserve my right to call it unsafe because, well, it is unsafe.

3. It is OK to be stupid and accept that unapologetically, rather than trying to prove that I am wise with the decision. People buy cars just for sunroofs and mood lighting these days. All the Maruti car owners I have met till today (yes, All of them) will not deny that Maruti cars are unsafe. They know, and they accept that. And no one makes fun of them. At best, we make fun of Maruti as a company for selling unsafe cars and that is not wrong. I myself has an Alto in my hometown, and it serves the purpose of occasionally driving within the city limits.

4. My current car is also not GNCAP rated (5th Gen City), so yes I'm stupid as well.

[Emvi]

Originally Posted by sreejithkk

However the issue that OP mentioned is more towards unsolicited comments/advices I think.
If I have X amount of money, what car I am going to buy is completely my own decision and my own right. Even if there is another safer car available in the same price/ lesser price, the decision of the car that I choose should be honored.
[b]Making me aware of a safer car at the same price is a good thing. But questioning some one's purchase decision is not a great thing IMO.

Exactly.This is what I meant.People are not only questioning one's purchase decision, they go to an extent of actually abusing by calling names!
On most occasions people choose a car which suits not just his/her personal requirement,but the entire family's.Safety should definitely be one of the top priorities,but it may not be the sole deciding factor.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by vikred

I'm all for the govt. making more features mandatory:

1. Rear wash/wipe for hatchbacks and SUVs
2. Reversing camera, because it's getting harder to see what's behind you with newer cars
3. More airbags (thankfully, govt. has already them mandatory)
4. Auto high beams, to avoid blinding oncoming drivers

I share the sentiment and would love to have these options at least in the mid models (by price).
But there are some issues due to which the govt cannot make them mandatory (implying base variants).

• Rear wash/wipe : Assuming you also meant the demister, there are 2 main issues :

  1. Very few people use it, I am the only one in my extended family who even knows about it and just one of my friend uses it. that's 1 out of 10 drivers approx.
  2. Since very few people know about it why would they pay for it. Guessing here but it would add about 15-20k on the ex-showroom
  

• Reversing Camera : This would mean that ICE with a proper screen has to be fitted as well. Base variants can't have that hence cannot be mandatory, rear parking sensors already are.
• More airbags : Costs again, not just adding on the ex-showroom but also fixing them in case 4 of them were fired with a single occupant inside. And if sensors can be placed, then adding more costs but I think we will get there someday.
• Auto High beams : I would love this feature so much but in our unpredictable traffic and roads a headlight which keeps shifting based on a sensor input which can go wrong might actually prove to be a safety concern.
  But IMO would be hilarious to see the cars winking at each other

If we look at a car's(5-8 lakh segment) base and the second variant there's a significant price increase which mainly includes convenience features like the ICE/power windows/body colored and some other vanity features. Someone tight on budget can live without them and hence base variants are bare bones but with the mandatory safety kit.
Since all of it boils down to the cost and customer needs I wouldn't blame the manufacturers for not making it mandatory but definitely blame them if they offer it in XZ+/XZ variant
And any customer needs to be respected. If I want a car without a stereo/touchscreen/power windows, I should be able to get it.

As our country, economy and society mature over time all the stuff we are discussing will eventually happen, might be in weirder(#selfdrivencars) or better ways than we can imagine now but will happen for sure.

BHPians, since we are on topic I would highly recommend the video I had posted earlier (quoting here for ease).
Very realistic viewpoints, will bring clarity to some of the confusions we are having in this thread.
An excerpt : statistically the safest vehicle is the 3-wheeler, since they ply on city roads and lower speeds so fatalities and accidents are the lowest among all segments.

Originally Posted by shancz

Here's a good piece on real-world safety in India that I saw yesterday and seems apt for this topic (Credits to the providers) :
Autocar : Understanding Car Safety