[ron178]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

I'm not sure if the below point regarding the side impact test of XUV 300 was earlier discussed on this or any other thread. The side impact was made on the passenger side door where as generally it's done on the driver side. And during the impact, there was no dummy in the driver seat. This is quite interesting.

This has been discussed before on this thread (Tata Nexon: Global NCAP’s first 5-Star Indian car). To sum up, they seem to have tested the car for side impact on both the driver and passenger side, possibly as an audit (I can't think of any other reason). The press release for the XUV300's result says this:

Global NCAP tested the side impact protection of the XUV300 under UN95 regulation, the car comfortably passed the requirements when tested on either passenger or driver side.

This is evident in the test code pasted on the car since the last digit is 2 (MD0320MXU2), indicating that it has been the second side impact test on the XUV300 in the test lab in that week, hence confirming the statement printed in the press release.

Even Latin NCAP seems to pick a random side to test. The Toyota Yaris, GM New Onix and most others were tested on the passenger side, the Nissan Murano and the Ford Ranger on the driver side (and possibly more, but I haven't found any). (The last one was conducted at a different laboratory (BASt FTVA, also in Germany), though, so I'm not sure if that had a role to play).

Nevertheless I don't think of it as much of a goof, really, though I mentioned it as part of one.

Originally Posted by ron178

• Global NCAP hasn't released videos of the 2014 UNECE Regulation 94 56km/h frontal impact tests on the Alto 800, i10, Figo and Polo (they have released some scattered images for the Nano). The Figo was the only one that passed, when the driver dummy "narrowly avoided contacting the steering wheel". Also, in the test report for the Nano, the still used is from the R94 test, not the 64km/h test (which can be seen in the words 'UN R94' pasted below the test code instead of 'NCAP'. They also haven't released videos for the driver-side side impact test on the Mahindra XUV300 which they claim to have conducted (and the last digit of the test code confirms it).

Here's some interesting trivia about the 2014 Indian-market Suzuki Swift with double airbags tested by Latin NCAP (please use YouTube's Portuguese-to-English translator for the subtitles):

https://youtu.be/O0OK8hvoe2E

At 4:47 you can see the dashboard nearly separating from the door pillar which could explain the integrity of passenger compartment modifier (unstable structure).

At 5:38, you can see a before-and-after view of the rearward and upward displacement of the clutch and brake pedals, and it looks quite concerning.


In other news, two new Latin NCAP results will be out at 7:30 p.m. IST today.

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

And during the impact, there was no dummy in the driver seat. This is quite interesting.

I'd just like to add that for the Regulation 95 test a dummy must only be placed on the side struck by the MDB (mobile deformable barrier).

Any other configuration would classify as a far-side impact test, which could further be classified as follows:

If the passenger side was struck and there was a dummy only on the driver seat, that would be the configuration used by Euro NCAP for assessing far-side occupant excursion (how far the non-struck side occupant's body parts move to the side struck by the MDB).


Not even the more advanced NCAPs place a dummy on the non-struck side unless a countermeasure is fitted. (Citroën C4)


Far-side occupant excursion being assessed in a sled test (Toyota Yaris Cross)

On the other hand if there were dummies on both front seats, that would be the configuration for an occupant interaction test (to check interaction between body parts of both occupants). Euro NCAP presently conducts this test only if the car is fitted with a countermeasure to prevent interaction between the occupants, like a centre airbag.

The Toyota Yaris Cross has a centre airbag so ANCAP placed a dummy on the non-struck side to assess occupant interaction

Note that these side impact tests are different from Global NCAP's R95 test for a number of reasons, besides the fact that R95 is a pass/fail test while these tests are graded. Differences include 60km/h barrier speed instead of 50km/h, a heavier, more car-like barrier called the AE-MDB, and more advanced worldSID dummies developed specifically for side impact instead of Hybrid IIIs.

Global NCAP does not perform either of these yet, and to the best of my knowledge Euro NCAP (and by extension ANCAP) is pretty much the only NCAP who performs these tests. Global NCAP is not likely to conduct these before 2026, or maybe even later, and by then I reckon a Bharat NCAP would have been set up and the Safer Cars for India project would likely have stopped.

But I do not personally see any problem with any of the side impact tests conducted by Global NCAP as yet.

Image credits: Euro NCAP/ANCAP

[ron178]

I'm replying here to some questions on the thread about Tata's advertising which are more suited to this thread, to prevent that thread from going any further off topic. As part of it I will also address some recent claims on the Internet questioning who Global NCAP is in the first place. Note that if I quote a member it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm specifically targeting that member in my reply (which is more generic to the issue on the Internet).

Originally Posted by rpm

Please allow me the liberty to rearrange the order of your questions.

Thanks rpm for clearing it up.

Originally Posted by anoop.u

1. The are a UK based non profit who are focused on testing cars in India & Africa. But why? What does a UK based non-profit have anything to do with India? Why the exclusive interest with Indian cars? What happened to the rest of the countries? Does "Global" stand for "Desi"?

'UK-based nonprofit' is true, though when portrayed like that I think it might sound a bit misleading.

When one says 'Global NCAP is a UK-based nonprofit', it seems like it's some sort of a company who's coming out of the blue and crash testing cars from random markets. It's really not. The people responsible for Global NCAP have been involved with Euro NCAP and others for a very long time.

I know Max Mosley was a controversial figure for whatever reasons there may be (I'm not quite clear about them since I'm not into Formula 1) but you have to remember that he was Global NCAP Chairman from the start until 2017, and this is the same person who helped found Euro NCAP and served as its President from 1997 to 2004.

Similarly with Mr David Ward, current Global NCAP President, who campaigned against dilution of proposed regulatory crash test standards in the EU in the nineties (which today are known as UN R94, R95 etc. and are now applied in many countries around the world including India albeit modified as AIS-098 and 099), then in 1996 helped set up Euro NCAP and served on its board for ten years.

So this is really nothing new. Global NCAP may have been founded just in 2011 and yes, it may be a 'UK-based non-profit' but you have to remember that the people behind it have a lot of experience in the area and know well how to deal with manufacturers and manufacturer associations.

And you have to remember that Global NCAP has been here a bit longer than just Safer Cars for India. Unlike other NCAPs, Global NCAP also has to perform a lot of other duties than just test cars and issue ratings. They regularly lobby against manufacturer associations like OICA and ACEA who continuously push for the dilution and delay of regulation in third-world countries (if you see some of their statements you'll think RC Bhargava and Andy Palmer's statements are very sane in comparison). This was the reason Global NCAP was set up in the first place: all the work by the UN and Euro NCAP was only benefitting Europe and other developed markets.

Just for example, Renault. They made the first ever car to score a five star adult protection rating in Euro NCAP, the Laguna back in 2002. This was followed by a literal barrage of five star cars like the Modus, the Espace and more. So when Renault-Nissan was developing low-cost cars with no airbags and likely failing to meet even the UN regulation - but only for emerging markets - like the Clio Mio, the Kwid and the GO, you can understand why it would worry the people who lobbied so hard against the same thing in developed markets.

Global NCAP's crash test programmes are not just limited to India and Africa. Latin NCAP and ASEAN NCAP both were started in part because of Global NCAP. Global NCAP engaged with organisations and insurance companies in Latin America to set up an NCAP there, which then came to be known as Latin NCAP, which is a very high-profile programme today. They also engaged with the Malaysian Institute for Road Safety (MIRoS) to set up ASEAN NCAP for South-East Asia. MIRoS was very quick and set up a crash test laboratory (PC3) in the region and started testing for ASEAN NCAP.

With India, it was slightly different. India was (and is) turning out to be one of the largest car markets and exporters globally and the lack of regulation or consumer information was concerning. However, unlike with Latin NCAP and ASEAN NCAP, they didn't get much local partnership. So instead of setting up a new NCAP they just started a 'demo' NCAP, which we know as Safer Cars for India, which functions like a proper NCAP but gets limited funds and can only test a few cars every year out of their pockets. The limited testing is why they want a full-fledged NCAP to be set up in India by the Government (Bharat NCAP or BNVSAP) and are continuously pushing for this, but in the meanwhile they will continue the Safer Cars for India project until this happens.

It's not just India, then. It also affects markets we export to. A consumer in a neighbouring country for example will read about crash test results in India for cars exported from here. Take Nepal, for example. They don't have a Safer Cars for Nepal project. They don't have regulatory crash test standards. But Renault now sells the Kwid there with a driver's airbag and ABS brakes in its standard specification anyway. Correct me here if I'm wrong but I don't think this would have happened if this was 'only for India'.


It's not ideal, and yes, Safer Cars for India protocols are updated much less frequently than proper NCAPs', but you have to remember that this is this only an intermediate project until a proper NCAP is set up here.

So I think if one says that the people at Global NCAP don't know what they're doing, they're effectively questioning the integrity of Euro NCAP, Latin NCAP, ASEAN NCAP and pretty much everything other than ANCAP, the NHTSA and IIHS (and the NCAPs in China, Japan, Korea and Russia) - all of whom also engage very well with Global NCAP. Whether one wishes to do that or not is of course one's own choice.

Bottom line - Global NCAP as an organisation is not really an NCAP, however funny it might sound. It's an organisation that promotes cooperation between NCAPs and helps establish new local, 'desi' NCAPs in more markets. Where this is not possible in a short time frame they have set up their own small crash test projects which will operate till an NCAP is set up in the region.

Originally Posted by anoop.u

2. Their used to initially test the base models of cars buy buying it anonymously so that manufacturers would not rig the test cars. This has now evolved into them giving out ratings to cars before it has even been launched (Tata Punch).

They've never changed this. Had any manufacturer volunteered to have results revealed during the launch earlier, they would have done it. The fact that this has started only recently is because no manufacturer did it before. This is a standard practice for most NCAPs. Proton had ASEAN NCAP test results for the Persona/Iriz facelifts revealed right during the launch in August. Similarly with many other NCAPs. For Euro NCAP, for example, most of the testing is paid for by manufacturers. Another extreme example I recently pointed out elsewhere is ASEAN NCAP's test on the Toyota Agya/Daihatsu Ayla/Perodua Axia. Test results were supposed to be revealed at launch but the deadline couldn't be met so ASEAN NCAP sent their representatives to Daihatsu's in-house lab to observe a test. At least Global NCAP selects a car from the plant's distribution area (where produced cars are parked and shipped to dealers) and ships it to their accredited laboratory to ensure that the cars are the same ones going to dealers.

Originally Posted by anoop.u

3. Testing process: Harrier and Safari have not been tested

You really can't expect them to test every car on the market. Even if we had a proper NCAP they wouldn't be able to do test every car on sale, you can't possibly hold that against them. They'll test that model when they can, but that may not be soon, or ever. All we can do is hope.

Originally Posted by dsr001

For the Harrier/Safari twins, another reason for not getting them tested might be rollover risk; are these twins more prone to rollover compared to competition? Can someone share if NCAP checks for this?

Nope. Most NCAPs don't. At present the NHTSA (in the USA) is the only NCAP who conducts a dynamic rollover risk test. Besides that, the IIHS (in the USA) also conducts a static roof strength test. Latin NCAP and the Scandinavian Teknikens Värld magazine conduct moose tests but these are not very standardised tests and depend on driver input. Besides, they're more for checking real-world ESC function (since the standard robotised steering sine-dwell manoeuvre prescribed in the UN's regulatory tests can be engineered for specifically) than to check rollover, though they might also bring out any deficiencies in rollover protection. If a Bharat NCAP isn't set up by 2026 then I would except Global NCAP to introduce a moose test for Safer Cars for India and Safer Cars for Africa by then, since they usually piggyback on old Latin NCAP protocols anyway.

Originally Posted by Nithesh_M

Simple. All Ncap results are valid only for a year from time of testing. All manufacturers are free to modify the cars without notice eventually (like deletion of features from original brochure list). This is why I roll my eyes when people on this very enthusiasts forum declare an outdated Polo, Rapid or a Punto is a much safer car than a 3 star Seltos. Fun fact, the Fiat Punto aka the Ncaps safest car from circa 2005 scored 0 stars in 2017 re-testing. Assuming Fiat still sold the Punto here, they would be taken to court if they highlighted the original Ncap ratings to promote it as a safer car. This is why the Nexon doesn't show ncap ratings on website anymore.

Global NCAP's results are allowed to be advertised for upto four years after publication regardless of whether there is a new protocol in force, as their secretary-general and former technical director Alejandro Furas recently confirmed in an interview. The Fiat Punto and the Škoda Rapid have never been crash-tested by Global NCAP and do not have a valid result for India. I assume what you're referring to is Euro NCAP's tests on the European-market Punto, a result that is not valid for India. Euro NCAP has frequently updated their protocols since they were set up which is why the Punto which once scored a full rating in their tests scored a zero star result in 2017 tests for lack of modern safety features. Also important to note is that the older Grande Punto had side torso airbags and head-protecting curtains, which in some European markets were not standard equipment in 2017. As for advertising Euro NCAP ratings in India, it should not be done and if you spotted Fiat India doing this or if you spot any manufacturer in the future advertising any other NCAP's ratings for India please report it to Euro NCAP and they will take action (they recently did with Suzuki South Africa who were advertising the Vitara sold there as a five-star Euro NCAP model).

Originally Posted by ron178

They've managed to prove in the Indian market something that NCAPs, governments, Joan Claybrook (the person who got the idea of the first ever NCAP) and Ralph Nader have said time and again - SAFETY SELLS

They said it again a few hours ago.

[ron178]

Got answers for a few questions:

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

I'm not sure if the below point regarding the side impact test of XUV 300 was earlier discussed on this or any other thread. The side impact was made on the passenger side door where as generally it's done on the driver side. And during the impact, there was no dummy in the driver seat. This is quite interesting.

Regulation 95 must be conducted on the driver side, and Latin NCAP always asked manufacturers whether the cars were symmetrical and they claimed they were. When they once tested the passenger side on a car where the driver side had scored well, the passenger side failed even R95. Since then they have been picking a random side to test for Latin NCAP, mostly the passenger side. They had an extra XUV300 at the lab and decided to run a test on the passenger side too because of a 'hunch' (they say Mahindra was not pleased), but it passed comfortably.

Originally Posted by ron178

•Global NCAP hasn't released videos of the 2014 UNECE Regulation 94 56km/h frontal impact tests on the Alto 800, i10, Figo and Polo (they have released some scattered images for the Nano). The Figo was the only one that passed, when the driver dummy "narrowly avoided contacting the steering wheel". Also, in the test report for the Nano, the still used is from the R94 test, not the 64km/h test (which can be seen in the words 'UN R94' pasted below the test code instead of 'NCAP'.

There were some issues with the lab software where the cameras and lights were accidentally set up for a left hand-drive test, but the 56km/h tests were very much conducted (I even managed to get a glimpse of the Figo that passed). The lab software would have typically prevented the test from being run if it detected that the child dummies were in the wrong positions for the test but in this case that didn't happen because R94 does not include child dummies.

[Sidban85]

Any update if reports in January expected for any Indian market cars?

[ron178]

Originally Posted by Sidban85

Any update if reports in January expected for any Indian market cars?

I had the opportunity to speak with their Secretary General in late December and during that he mentioned that new results for India would be out in the second half of January.

There will likely be no updates about this until the official publication. They have very strict embargoes on which models have been tested, and obviously I didn't ask. He did mention that they have tested more models than usual. How many more models, that is not clear. I expect less than double the usual (maybe around 3-5 depending on how expensive the tested cars are).

The delay in publication is also probably because Global NCAP had a very busy last quarter in 2021, especially for Latin NCAP.

All I know is that the VW Taigun is not included, and there is a high possibility the MG Hector and Renault Kiger are, though it's possible that there is no truth to the rumours. Beyond that, no idea.

[ron178]

Percentage sales of cars with five-star Global NCAP ratings for adult protection more than double year-on-year (Source: Autohead)

Link to Tweet

Not sure which results have been considered as still valid in the calculation, especially for the zero-star cars.

5 star rated car sales double from 6% to 13% YoY.
Unrated cars still form the bulk of buy contribute to over 40% sales.
0 star rated car for over 13% of total sales.

[Venkatesh]

GNCAP Safety Rated Passenger Vehicles in India - 2021

- 8% of passenger vehicles sold in India have 5 star safety rating from GNCAP

- All 5-star safety rated products are from Tata and Mahindra’s stable

- 54% of passenger vehicles sold are GNCAP unrated

Manufacturer wise GNCAP of their product portfolio

- Tata and Mahindra on their own started developing 5-star safety rated PV in India without any Government mandate

- Tata Motors also proved that a car that is priced around ₹ 5.5 lakhs can reach a 5-star GNACP rating

- Other manufactures have a mixed bag of offerings but they need to learn a lot from Tata and Mahindra

- Toyota’s 4-star rated product (Urban Cruiser) comes from Maruti (rebadged Brezza)

GNCAP - Unrated manufacturers



Bodystyle wise GNCAP Rating

- SUV/Crossover body styled products have better safety ratings (not by default, but by design)

- Tata Altroz is the only 5-star rated product in the hatchback segment

- Renault Triber is the only 4-star rated MUV

- Tata Tigor is the only 4-star rated sedan

Source

[ron178]

Originally Posted by Sidban85

Any update if reports in January expected for any Indian market cars?

Originally Posted by ron178

mentioned that new results for India would be out in the second half of January.

I'm somewhat beginning to doubt this and would like to apologise in advance in case it turns out there has been a change. I've had no communication with their team since late December and communication around early and mid-January has had no response (normally, in the past, this has meant they were busy publishing upcoming results for Latin NCAP, so there is some hope).

I haven't been sure whether he said 'later half' or 'last week' of January, but he definitely said somewhere in late January which is why I have said 'second half' in the past to be safe.

Normally the results should be on schedule, which is why I am slightly confused, but sometimes there are issues which might delay results (it has happened with Latin NCAP in late 2016 and 2021).

I still think the results will be published soon but I'm losing confidence day after day.

[kratswat]

Hi ron178

Curious to know if there has been any developments for the next round. I have been trying to shortlist cars for over 6 months now and the biggest hurdle holding me back is the lack of NCAP ratings for almost all the cars that interest me - i20 N Line, City, Kushaq

[ron178]

Originally Posted by kratswat

Curious to know if there has been any developments for the next round. I have been trying to shortlist cars for over 6 months now and the biggest hurdle holding me back is the lack of NCAP ratings for almost all the cars that interest me - i20 N Line, City, Kushaq

No idea of the date. It seems to have been postponed (was supposed to be in Jan), possibly because of the semiconductor shortage (they try to buy cars from dealers) but I'm not sure of the exact reason.

They are very hush-hush about which models they have tested.

Out of the models you have mentioned, the only one which I personally think has a chance at being included is the Hyundai New i20.

You will not see the new VW Group products in the next publication (unless there was a sudden change of plans). Maybe in the one after that (definitely not before July).

I don't personally think they'll test the Honda New City in this publication unless Honda has sponsored a test (like in Latin America where they went aggressive on their safety strategy and sponsored their entire model range in 2015 right after Latin NCAP announced they would be updating their protocol in a year). It has side airbags and ESC in its basic specification so they would most likely want to test those systems too, which they can only do under their new assessment protocols (which will start in July). They might test another Honda model because no Honda model on sale in India has a rating and some of them are very popular. It has also been a long time since they tested a Honda for India.

The only ones I am reasonably sure of are the Hector, Kiger and Nexon EV (all three based on rumours), but I still might be wrong about all three. Global NCAP make it very hard to determine what they're testing. I expect the Kiger's test to be voluntary. Not sure whether the Hector's test is voluntary or not, but if it is then it is possible (just a gut feeling) that MG have sponsored tests on their their other models. Most likely Global NCAP have also tested more models, but no idea which one(s) it/they might be.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by rpm

Some background: I have been frequenting GNCAP's YouTube channel ever since Autocar's rumour suggesting that the Kiger is in for a test at GNCAP.

Originally Posted by goacom

Is there any update on the India crash ratings of the Kiger/Magnite twins?

Originally Posted by Hashtag

pending NCAP rating for the car.

Originally Posted by kratswat

Curious to know if there has been any developments for the next round.

Originally Posted by Sidban85

Any update if reports in January expected for any Indian market cars?

Originally Posted by Poitive

As per ron178, a new round of crash test reports are round the corner and might include the Hector.

Next round of Global NCAP India results to be published soon*, will include Renault Kiger: NDTV Car&Bike's Siddharth Vinayak Patankar



Link to Tweet

*not sure how soon exactly. Yawn.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by Venkatesh

GNCAP Safety Rated Passenger Vehicles in India - 2021

Interesting analysis. I would also like to review the price vs Safety rating quadrant. Most of the tested and well-rated cars sit in the mid-price segment. Most of the upper price segment (>15 lac INR) has untested cars.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

Interesting analysis. I would also like to review the price vs Safety rating quadrant. Most of the tested and well-rated cars sit in the mid-price segment. Most of the upper price segment (>15 lac INR) has untested cars.

The issue is that in India the best-selling cars and the cars we're most curious about (Nexon EV, Hector, City, Harrier, Kushaq, Creta, Baleno etc.) are not necessarily the most affordable. That said, I think the next round might include some fairly high-up cars that are of interest to Global NCAP trustees. Important to note that as much as this is an experimental NCAP for India, it is also a research project for them (Global NCAP trustees are mostly people who are/were in charge of the other NCAPs and the IIHS) to find out what manufacturers are selling in markets without an NCAP. Before the 2019 regulation came in, the no-airbag cars were normally in the more affordable segments so Global NCAP would obviously want to test them. Now most of those are covered so they are more likely to make the selection based on a market reference.

The best way to see more expensive models rated is by manufacturer sponsorship. In Latin NCAP for example, Toyota, VW and Seat have a habit of sponsoring nearly every new model right before launch, even the less popular ones like the RAV4 and Taos. Of course, this is because they expect them to perform well and intend to use the result as a sales argument (like Tata and Mahindra do in India), but at the end the consumer is informed. Sometimes even sponsored tests can expose unexpected anomalies, like the Indian airbag-equipped Duster, and this expensive, well-equipped, US-made CBU Nissan Murano sponsored by Nissan, that consumers in Latin America might have expected to perform like the US version.

[ron178]

Not 100% sure but the new Global NCAP Safer Cars for India results could be published today.

They might include the Renault Kiger (likely voluntary), Kia Carens (likely voluntary) and the Honda Jazz (not sure whether voluntary or not).

Not sure whether the Hector (thanks to MG's Tweet) and Nexon EV (can't say why) are included.

I could be completely wrong so best take it with a pinch of salt.

Source (?)

Originally Posted by volkman10

Honda Jazz ?... when it has been phased out in all markets, except India, and is doing triple digit numbers in monthly sales in India

They also tested the Mobilio a year before it was discontinued...let's see. There are also no tested Hondas on sale at all. Maybe they wanted to test the 4th-gen City but chose the Jazz because it was cheaper. These are the same people who thought testing the Datsun redi-GO was a good idea.

Plus, the Jazz/WR-V are the only Hondas on sale with no ISOFIX anchorages, which the models get internationally. So maybe it was of particular interest especially considering that in Africa the Amaze's child dynamic test was an absolute nightmare even though the Q3 was in an ISOFIX seat. A full zero for dynamics.

OR maybe Honda has sponsored it, in which case I would expect that they've sponsored other models too. Though I would have preferred to see the New City tested under the new protocol.

Or, as I've said above, I might be entirely wrong.

Can anyone identify the model at the bottom left?

[volkman10]

Originally Posted by ron178

--

They might include-- and the Honda Jazz (not sure whether voluntary or not).

---

Honda Jazz ?... when it has been phased out in all markets, except India, and is doing triple digit numbers in monthly sales in India